Refugees in Europe

The discussion on economic migrant vs. refugee is really really getting to me. You don't have to have no money to be a refugee, the majority of people have paid their way to smugglers to get a place on a boat and they have pretty much paid everything to be able to do this. Even if they can afford it, why should that person be called a migrant and the other person a refugee? They are all after the same objective which is a better life for themselves and their family. I am a Syrian/British myself, and honestly I feel completely over ridden with guilt most of the time as to why I was blessed with a good life, and my own family members and friends got the short end of the stick because they live and work in Syria, what have they done wrong? Yes a lot of them had money, but they have been living in a country where men have not been able to work for over 4 years, children barely go to school, there is no water, no electricity, the cost of food has gone up ridiculously, there is constant bombing in all parts of the city and nobody is safe - I know numerous people that have had their houses destroyed - the healthcare system is atrocious, disease is widespread, people are living in the streets. I'm sorry but if anyone of us lived through that with no end in sight then we would all leave. It doesn't matter if you have money to afford a way out or not, everyone is in the same situation and everybody has the right to claim refugee status as much as the next person. Somebody made the comment about how they haven't met a single Syrian refugee that would give anything to go back to the life that they had before. This is so true. Nobody is happy that they are fleeing everything that they know and love to go and be an asylum seeker. These people will always be an outcast in the country that they have landed in, for the majority there will be few work opportunities other than manual labour, factory workers, etc, people do not speak the language, are not used to the culture. Yes they are given benefits and a house which is really the only reason why they would make the sacrifice, but the government won't make handouts to them forever and they will be expected to work. Some of these people are highly educated, I know a person that has two master degrees and had a very respectable job in Syria - he won't be able to find work in Germany where he now is. A lot of people have held on in Syria, believing that this conflict will end, but I think the sad reality is it will be years before that happens. When it does end, there will no nobody to rebuild the country, everyone with money and an education will have left already. In terms of the article posted about what the Gulf is doing. I agree that a lot of residency visas have been given out, but every single person that has been granted residency here has been expected to pay their way the same as everyone else. Same rents, same school fees, same everything. There are no subsidies for the people that have left due to the conflict, no handouts, nothing. These people have spent a lot of money building lives here the same as everyone else, and the economy has benefited considerably. Part of the reason for the rent hikes have been people from Syria, Libya, Egypt that have money that have moved here and so demand is higher. Unfortunately a normal Syrian can't even get a visit visa to the Gulf anymore.

JEAHH45..........you obviously had a very unpleasant experience with ONE refugee/ economic migrant/opportunist......pick your own epithet. I can only speak from my experience, but i do have to wonder........why are you so angry? And after all......aren't you a migrant? Or is it a case of ......"Ï am an expat"........"you are a migrant".........."they are a swarm" ? Yes, we are all migrants here, but we get zero benefits from the country we have migrated to. My husband works 12 hours a day to enable us to have a quite modest life in Dubai. Would love to go back to Germany myself, but no jobs for us there and probably no place at a kindergarden for our LO... refugee kids are definitely a priority at the moment. Germany has a very strong economy now, they have collected much more taxes than expected, no new debts next year...but guess who is going to get these excess money? Refugees! And citizens will continue to pay half of their salaries on taxes... Is this fair? You have chosen to leave Germany for a supposedly better life in Dubai, if the benefits were so amazing in Germany wouldn't you just stay there unemployed and pocket them? And are you suggesting that the German kids don't get kindergarten space because of refugee kids? I do think the German leaders feel it's time to pay back for the innocent lives they have taken in the past and if they have the means why not? I just have to add that I used to be a British army wife living in a camp in Germany. The biggest scroungers were the British families with kids, they got child support from the UK AND they registered and received German child support!I did not have children at the time, but was pregnant and was on my way to another country. The British midwife even adviced me that's what I could do. The British army personnel also had a tax reduction and was eligible to buy taxfree cars from the UK. They also had a shop with taxfree alcohol, cigarette and perfumes. No limit to how much you could buy.

I think this whole situation is getting beyond desperate. The sad thing is that there are those poor people who genuinely need help and really should get it. After all if we were in a similar situation with our families we would welcome help with open arms, well I would anyway. But now there are those that are just taking advantage of the whole situation. By just opening the flood gates to anyone and everyone just encourages more and more people to attempt to cross the sea risking their own and their families lives. I also agree as previously mentioned, Why are they not happy to have landed in a safe country? Majority are not. Most want to defy the laws and regulations and do what ever means necessary to get to Germany or UK. If this multi millionaire was able to buy an island for them all and help set up jobs on it etc so that they could become self sufficient, I wonder how many of all those arriving would be happy trying that. I have a sneaky feeling they would get on another form of craft and once again try German.

JEAHH45..........you obviously had a very unpleasant experience with ONE refugee/ economic migrant/opportunist......pick your own epithet. I can only speak from my experience, but i do have to wonder........why are you so angry? And after all......aren't you a migrant? Or is it a case of ......"Ï am an expat"........"you are a migrant".........."they are a swarm" ? Yes, we are all migrants here, but we get zero benefits from the country we have migrated to. My husband works 12 hours a day to enable us to have a quite modest life in Dubai. Would love to go back to Germany myself, but no jobs for us there and probably no place at a kindergarden for our LO... refugee kids are definitely a priority at the moment. Germany has a very strong economy now, they have collected much more taxes than expected, no new debts next year...but guess who is going to get these excess money? Refugees! And citizens will continue to pay half of their salaries on taxes... Is this fair?

JEAHH45..........you obviously had a very unpleasant experience with ONE refugee/ economic migrant/opportunist......pick your own epithet. I can only speak from my experience, but i do have to wonder........why are you so angry? And after all......aren't you a migrant? Or is it a case of ......"Ï am an expat"........"you are a migrant".........."they are a swarm" ?

topic, these people have absolutely nothing to do with the UK's inability to face up to its responsibilities to their injured armed forces. we could argue all night about who or what is to blame, but these people are NOT leaving everything they have to come to Europe to leech of the public purse, they are fleeing for their lives. As they say in the oilfield............when your a@@se is on fire...........you jump. The UK is at breaking point. The UK, like any other country has a responsibility towards its own citizens - not some 20k freeloaders who, it is well known, are heading for UK shores for the benefits. Having my car peed upon and screamed at by a non European demanding I take him and his family to UK wanting benefits (having to go by ferry instead of Eurostar because these people are blocking the route) and with two young children in the car is not at all compassionate but dangerous.

As some of you may remember I no longer live in Dubai, I am in Cyprus. Last autumn a boat with several hundred refugees ran aground off the West coast of the island, it was taken under tow by the local Coastguard and taken safety to port in Limassol. The majority of the refugees initially refused to leave the ship, since they had paid to go to Italy, they had relatives and support systems on mainland Europe. They also may have guessed the way they would be treated here in Cyprus. They were quite correct in their apprehension, they have been abandoned into unlivable conditions under canvas with little or no facilities. I have been working with others to try to alleviate the plight of these people, I have yet to meet one who would have chosen to leave their homes and in many case their businesses in Syria but they had no option, when the government is bombarding them with barrel bombs on the one hand and D@@sh, with their well known savagery on the other. This week another boat has been washed up, again these people were fleeing H@ll. Today I met two doctors, a dentist, a lawyer, two university lecturers and a bank manager............these people are not "economic migrants'" ..........they are ordinary people, like you or I just trying to survive. This thread had gone horribly off topic, these people have absolutely nothing to do with the UK's inability to face up to its responsibilities to their injured armed forces. we could argue all night about who or what is to blame, but these people are NOT leaving everything they have to come to Europe to leech of the public purse, they are fleeing for their lives. As they say in the oilfield............when your a@@se is on fire...........you jump.

It's a shame it's people that needs help if it would have been illegal hunting of lions or tortured dogs and cats, some would maybe have more compassion and wouldn't expect them to pay back for all the costs involved of helping. Generally those who genuinely have COMPASSION do not distinguish, who says you can only care about the plight of humans OR animals. In all my years working for animal rescue I can say with certainty that many of those who I worked shoulder to shoulder with were also there when responding to human tragedy. And some people can fight with shadows...pick an argument out of nothing. You introduced the issue..... I responded with my opinion and personal experience. Nomad, my point wasn't that animal lovers don't care about humans, sorry if it came across that way. The point I was trying to make was that way more support shows towards abused animals or unlawful killing of animals, you just wouldn't read so many hateful things about the animals anyway. Thank you.

It's a shame it's people that needs help if it would have been illegal hunting of lions or tortured dogs and cats, some would maybe have more compassion and wouldn't expect them to pay back for all the costs involved of helping. Generally those who genuinely have COMPASSION do not distinguish, who says you can only care about the plight of humans OR animals. In all my years working for animal rescue I can say with certainty that many of those who I worked shoulder to shoulder with were also there when responding to human tragedy. And some people can fight with shadows...pick an argument out of nothing. You introduced the issue..... I responded with my opinion and personal experience. Nomad, my point wasn't that animal lovers don't care about humans, sorry if it came across that way. The point I was trying to make was that way more support shows towards abused animals or unlawful killing of animals, you just wouldn't read so many hateful things about the animals anyway.

The picture of a man hugging his child and crying in a boat have arrived in Germany with his family. So at least some good news today ?

Every country that can and is willing to help should be able to do so as they see fit without others judging. The whole "GCC are not doing anything" is based on lies and coming from the UN it is probably the most unreliable source. UN in this region has proven weak and doesn't recognize nor appreciates the fact that the majority of the aid they receive comes from the Arab countries on top of all the Red Crescent projects the UAE runs. It's great Europe is doing what they do, but this refugee crisis existed way before it became a crisis for Europe. In this region refugees have been welcomed since it started 5 years ago. Now Europe nor Amnesty nor UN have the right to tell the GCC jump and expect them to say how high. Giving people an EU passport is not the end all of all solutions.

It's a shame it's people that needs help if it would have been illegal hunting of lions or tortured dogs and cats, some would maybe have more compassion and wouldn't expect them to pay back for all the costs involved of helping. Generally those who genuinely have COMPASSION do not distinguish, who says you can only care about the plight of humans OR animals. In all my years working for animal rescue I can say with certainty that many of those who I worked shoulder to shoulder with were also there when responding to human tragedy. And some people can fight with shadows...pick an argument out of nothing. You introduced the issue..... I responded with my opinion and personal experience.

It's a shame it's people that needs help if it would have been illegal hunting of lions or tortured dogs and cats, some would maybe have more compassion and wouldn't expect them to pay back for all the costs involved of helping. Generally those who genuinely have COMPASSION do not distinguish, who says you can only care about the plight of humans OR animals. In all my years working for animal rescue I can say with certainty that many of those who I worked shoulder to shoulder with were also there when responding to human tragedy. And some people can fight with shadows...start an argument out of nothing.

It's a shame it's people that needs help if it would have been illegal hunting of lions or tortured dogs and cats, some would maybe have more compassion and wouldn't expect them to pay back for all the costs involved of helping. Generally those who genuinely have COMPASSION do not distinguish, who says you can only care about the plight of humans OR animals. In all my years working for animal rescue I can say with certainty that many of those who I worked shoulder to shoulder with were also there when responding to human tragedy.

Never mind - some people will just never get it. When the proverbial poop hits the fan, and we sit and say 'told you so', don't expect us to do anything. We'll just shrug and walk away. I could say the same to you. The @$%& has hit the fan. Who is "we" ? Daily mail readers?

I don't know if we are allowed to discuss what is happening in Europe, but I really hope something can be resolved for all those refugees. Broke my heart to see that toddler on the beach in Turkey. There but for the grace of God ..... [i'>“Recognize yourself in he and she who are not like you and me.” ― Carlos Fuentes[/i'> Can't agree more...how very sad and desperate.LIFE!:cry:

Never mind - some people will just never get it. When the proverbial poop hits the fan, and we sit and say 'told you so', don't expect us to do anything. We'll just shrug and walk away.

Fairydust, there is a massive difference between someone from the UK who [b'>chooses [/b'> a career in the Army compared to a refugee fleeing a civil war with lunatics on both sides. When western soldiers return they have homes to go to, healthcare, money from the government and a chance of gaining employment in other careers. What have the Syrians got to go home too? 80% of all businesses have gone, the economy won't recover for decades. Children are not being educated. Their homes have been bombed, its a mess. If the west is not to blame for this mess.....who is? I beg to differ on your second paragraph!! Shockingly, ex-service personnel account for one in 10 rough sleepers across the UK. And charities have warned that the problem of homelessness among former soldiers, sailors and airmen is a “ticking time bomb” which will only get worse if urgent action isn’t taken. Yesterday Simon Weston OBE, who suffered serious burns in the Falklands War, accused the Government of “betraying” veterans after learning of the disturbing numbers without a home.

Fairydust, there is a massive difference between someone from the UK who [b'>chooses [/b'> a career in the Army compared to a refugee fleeing a civil war with lunatics on both sides. When western soldiers return they have homes to go to, healthcare, money from the government and a chance of gaining employment in other careers. What have the Syrians got to go home too? 80% of all businesses have gone, the economy won't recover for decades. Children are not being educated. Their homes have been bombed, its a mess. If the west is not to blame for this mess.....who is?

I wondered how long it would take before Europe and the US got the blame. You can't keep blaming them for everything. Plus maybe the reason 'some' of us feel so strongly about this, is because WE have fathers, husbands, brothers, sisters, daughters out there fighting and serving. WE sit there day after day, hoping they don't show up wearing an orange jumpsuit, or come home in a body bag - if at all. But they go and they serve and they fight, mostly to try and preserve the life YOU and others enjoy and so that we're not taken over by lunatics, **** bent on mass slaughter. Our service men and women serve for a pittance - they get no thanks, nor rewards and are treated appallingly if and when they return. Maybe spare a thought for those families. So, yes, when we see able bodied and fit young men, who could clearly fight for something it's annoying.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-34172729 Germany has one of the lowest unemployment rates in the EU at just 6.4 percent also the population is falling. Germany's population will shrink from 81.3 million in 2013 to 70.8 million in 2060. Fair enough and I stand corrected on that. But still, it doesn't give people the right to demand to go to certain countries, walk in the door, expect to walk into a job, have a house over their head and benefits. Sad to say, it's turning out a LOT of the so-called refugees, are not at all, but economic migrants. As I've said before, genuine refugees in desperate need of help, deserve all the help they can get and that's how it should be. All these other people are just opportunists. What's also sad to see are the sheer numbers of young, able bodied men in these crowds - go back, pick up arms and fight for your country! Germany is the richest country in Europe they opened the doors so these desperate people can come in knowing full well they will have to house them. Of course there will be a few from countries considered safe but Germany has already said that these people will be deported. I find it shocking that you would expect the men to stay and fight for their country when the choice is to fight for ISIS or Assad !! The Arab spring would not have happened if the US and Europe had not meddled in the ME in the first place.

People should be able to live wherever they want? Oh if only it were that easy! The EU laws governing refugees state, that a refugee must find refuge and apply for asylum in the first safe country they land in. Applications are then processed and refugees are then sent to countries that can offer help and this is based on land mass, population, economic viability etc. The EU has the numbers as to how many refugees each of its member states can take in and cope with. When you have people who do not do this, and press on into other countries, that is a different decision making process. You then have the issue of some countries having more people than they can cope with and others who can take on more, having less, simply because people would rather go to one country or another. Certain other countries are refusing to help and seem to do nothing, when in fact they are the ones who should be opening their borders and assisting, instead of making this a 'European refugee crisis' - which it's not at all. BBC News had an interesting article as to why Syrians are heading to Europe instead of 'certain' other countries. Also look up the world bank data on how many refugees each country in the world currently has - that is a complete eye opener, and 'some' countries should be ashamed. There was also an article with the father of the little boy that drowned this morning - heartbreaking and tragic to read. BUT the thing that stuck out? They were trying to get to CANADA!!! CANADA - how many safe countries inbetween? Why oh why risk yourselves unnecessarily. If things don't improve soon and others step up to help, you'll soon find European countries just closing their borders, revoking the Shengen visa program - which has already been discussed and just saying no more. They were trying to reach Canada because that is where their relatives were. Many people who have suffered the great trauma of having their house bombed, knowing that 20-30 relatives who returned to an area declared "safe" were murdered (literally losing their heads) - people want to get far away to an area they know is safe and with the comfort of relatives. I cannot judge them for that as it would be my instinct as well. Obviously only a small number are coming to Europe compared to the millions in saturated camps in Turkey, Jordan and Iraq then the international community has to step up and provide help: - the UN say that many of the camps are not safe - some have been shelled - so people are scared when the war approaches. - the camps are running out of food as the aid dwindles - people in the camps are VERY VERY fearful - they have witnessed atrocities and do not know who to trust I know about this fear from a woman I knew during the Bosnian crisis. She was a nurse in a small town when soldiers rolled in. The people were promised safe passage on UN busses. Under a "women and children" first policy the women and small children were bussed out without knowing where they would end up. The men and boys were never heard of again - all murdered by the soldiers. She had serious PTSD and didn't not know who to trust even when in a safe country - she relived losing her husband, brothers and father over and over again. Her big wish was to join her sister for security but their busses ended up in different countries and they were never reunited. It took almost 3 years for their residence to be approved in the country sh landed in The trauma experienced by her children lived on many years - her daughter won a major youth literary prize a decade later describing herexperiences as a 6 year old refugee.

Who do they fight for? There are so many different factions fighting so I imagine it isn't an easy task to determine who is which side

http://english.alarabiya.net/en/views/news/middle-east/2015/09/07/The-Gulf-and-Syrian-refugees.html Interesting article. Very interesting article Maroosh, thank you for sharing. It is a sad situation for all genuine refugees who have to flee their countries, but opportunists have jumped on board and are now attacking cars, buses, coaches etc going through European borders and demanding to be taken to Germany. As some else has said, the majority of these people are able bodied young men who could be fighting to save their country.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-34172729 Germany has one of the lowest unemployment rates in the EU at just 6.4 percent also the population is falling. Germany's population will shrink from 81.3 million in 2013 to 70.8 million in 2060. Fair enough and I stand corrected on that. But still, it doesn't give people the right to demand to go to certain countries, walk in the door, expect to walk into a job, have a house over their head and benefits. Sad to say, it's turning out a LOT of the so-called refugees, are not at all, but economic migrants. As I've said before, genuine refugees in desperate need of help, deserve all the help they can get and that's how it should be. All these other people are just opportunists. What's also sad to see are the sheer numbers of young, able bodied men in these crowds - go back, pick up arms and fight for your country!

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-34172729 Germany has one of the lowest unemployment rates in the EU at just 6.4 percent also the population is falling. Germany's population will shrink from 81.3 million in 2013 to 70.8 million in 2060.

It's a shame it's people that needs help if it would have been illegal hunting of lions or tortured dogs and cats, some would maybe have more compassion and wouldn't expect them to pay back for all the costs involved of helping. Really? Shocked and quite appalled you would even make that comparison - they are not mutually exclusive and people can care for both. Low blow that - really low.

It's a shame it's people that needs help if it would have been illegal hunting of lions or tortured dogs and cats, some would maybe have more compassion and wouldn't expect them to pay back for all the costs involved of helping.

If it was me I'd go to the nearest "safe" country and then take it from there. Yes, and so would I. As I said, I don't think one can pick and chose when at the mercy of getting help/refuge. Whether you like it or not, the current world is made up of countries with borders. Most people cannot just like that select where they want to live. Yes, if you have money (and a lot of it) you can live nearly wherever you want. Us others usually live where we work and are at the mercy of the employer/sponsor/husband. I would LOVE to live in France. At the moment it is not possible due to the practical reasons that I cannot master French and we cannot afford to move. So we plod along and hope that one day we've worked hard enough to realise our dreams. Why shouldn't they chose where they live? They know Germany will take them, they know they have a great healthcare system and schools. They know they will be housed and they know they will find work. They know they will find work? Really - Germany has massive unemployment at the moment - many German citizens can't find work, can't claim benefits, lack housing - why should people coming in get in when the citizens can't? My husband is German, he can't find a job in his own country, he doesn't get benefits, healthcare etc. So why should anyone else over him? NO one has the right to choose where they get to live - only if you're eligible for visas, residency, citizenship etc - these rules apply to EVERYONE.

I’m not sure anyone can say what they would or wouldn't do when they have never been in such a terrifying position. Genuine refugees fleeing from the atrocities need support wherever that maybe and the opportunity to restart their lives and build futures.