hostile salary negotiations (please help, my neighbor is distressed!) | ExpatWoman.com
 

hostile salary negotiations (please help, my neighbor is distressed!)

271
Posts
EW NEWBIE
Latest post on 31 January 2011 - 20:17

So, I ran into a neighbor this morning and she is due to move to the UAE in March. She looked haggard and when I asked her what was wrong she just melted into a puddle of tears. I invited her in for tea to see if I could comfort her and she is very stressed. She's having a nightmare of a time with final negotiations regarding her salary. She's been offered a pretty prestigious position for a quasi government company. (I don't know what that means, her words!) Everyone wants her there, but the HR guy is being a dou*he. Alternatively she has another offer here in London that will expire tomorrow so she's in quite a pickle...she would much prefer the job in the UAE.

She says the HR guy gave her one figure verbally (directly to her over the phone) and then a slightly lower figure the next day over email (through the head hunter). She e-mailed back accepting the verbal offer on Friday (because HR told her they needed a decision by today) but now she hasn't heard anything back and she is very sad and confused.

I've told her that this job doesn't look like a good idea if they are treating her with such disrespect already, but she seems to think that it's a cultural 'last man standing wins' type deal and that they just want her to cave in and accept the lower offer. I suggested she come on here and start a thread asking for insight, instead she decided that maybe I could do it on her behalf and she would just lurk. DH has suggested to her that her HR person has probably just brought the market haggling tactic to the work place and she should not take the lack of communication as a slight.

Clearly the whole situation stinks of un-professionalism.

We're due to move to Dubai on the 8th of Feb and I feel like DH has had to fight a fair few battles with HR too...but I'm quite cynical about her situation, perhaps they don't want to hire her anymore? (but surely, they would just say so, no?)

271
Posts
EW NEWBIE
Latest post on 01 February 2011 - 18:01
I hope she's reading this!
4747
Posts
EW MASTER
Latest post on 01 February 2011 - 16:30
London ! Another opportunity may come up in UAE with better offer at another time. UAE can be expensive and challanging and has changed very much in the past 5 years from since your neighbour left. As another posted : Red flags are flying for your friend. yeh this place is so totally different from 5 years ago. seen a lot of changes in the long time i have been here, some good, some not so.
4747
Posts
EW MASTER
Latest post on 01 February 2011 - 16:28
The biggest problem in this region is, if you do come and for whatever reason, you don't like the job or the conditions and you want to leave, you have to pay back the recruiting costs and you could be banned from the UAE. Even if you leave a job after 18 months or 2 years, the company can refuse to give you the NOC (No Objection Letter) and you're stuck not being allowed to even get another job. . Not any more - the law has changed, NOC no longer exist. technically thats right and technically its wrong. the new rules came into force beg of january. if you earn more than 12k then you do not need a NOC if you earn less than 12k then you do. Apologies for deviating from the OP but can I ask where you got this information as I thought the new ruling was more to do with being able to leave employment sooner without an NOC rathere than not needing one at all? TIA. :) hubs is changing visas at this moment in time, and the pro is on the ball, compared to previous ones, and he knows what is what, and thats what he told me.
521
Posts
EW GURU
Latest post on 01 February 2011 - 16:05
The biggest problem in this region is, if you do come and for whatever reason, you don't like the job or the conditions and you want to leave, you have to pay back the recruiting costs and you could be banned from the UAE. Even if you leave a job after 18 months or 2 years, the company can refuse to give you the NOC (No Objection Letter) and you're stuck not being allowed to even get another job. . Not any more - the law has changed, NOC no longer exist. technically thats right and technically its wrong. the new rules came into force beg of january. if you earn more than 12k then you do not need a NOC if you earn less than 12k then you do. Apologies for deviating from the OP but can I ask where you got this information as I thought the new ruling was more to do with being able to leave employment sooner without an NOC rathere than not needing one at all? TIA. :)
212
Posts
EW NEWBIE
Latest post on 01 February 2011 - 15:54
Has any one actually posted not to take the London Job and forget the Dubai one? That says something loud and clear doesn't it?
1566
Posts
EW EXPERT
Latest post on 01 February 2011 - 15:25
Until now, I didn't think lack of professionalism could be hazardous to your mental health.... edited by GoldinGlitterPunk on 01/02/2011 Be prepared, it's at every level and more than you could imagine if you've not experienced it before. I think your neighbour should go for the London job. The UAE job offer negotiations, she needs to play it like a game for the best outcome for her and be prepared to walk away, detach thoughts/emotions of "dream job in Dubai". As others have said, if she's stressed now, not sure it'll get better once she's out here. Well, that's my two pence worth. Wishing you all the best.
121
Posts
EW NEWBIE
Latest post on 01 February 2011 - 14:54
Where I work, HR always tries to offer the least salary they can get away with. I have recently hired a senior person and thus know exactly the salary range we can offer for each level of positions. The candidate is excellent. But HR on highest level wants to still offer much less. It is so difficult to get really good and competent people over here, so many incompetents that came for interview (seriously no idea how they had gotten their current jobs either) and we found an absolute gem of a candidate and it all became a circus with negotiations. Almost lost the candidate as well, and who could blame him. Your friend has to have a proper written and signed offer - with all benefits and perks clearly mentioned. Otherwise she should not even consider. Sometimes with companies they mention the salary range but if it is a multinational the final offer needs to go via global HR, and sometimes they will not go for the proposed figure for lots of reasons. Happened to my DH once - all was almost set but gloal HR rejected the offer.
596
Posts
EW GURU
Latest post on 01 February 2011 - 14:45
London ! Another opportunity may come up in UAE with better offer at another time. UAE can be expensive and challanging and has changed very much in the past 5 years from since your neighbour left. As another posted : Red flags are flying for your friend.
4329
Posts
EW MASTER
Latest post on 01 February 2011 - 08:53
This all sounds very common in my opinion. GGP, to tell you the truth, if your neighbour is stressed out about this I wonder if she would be able to work here. Contracts can be amended any time, benefits downgraded, you can get fired for no reason at any time and even if you are given a great package you may get asked to do work that is completely out of your field and has no relation to what is in your job description. Totally agree with this. They are trading on people's desperation ( for whatever reason) to get out to Dubai and get a slice of the "action". They lead people on, offer them jobs even and then cancel at the last minute which they can do in restructuring. Better to get the job in London and then work from a platform of strength as opposed to desperation.
1861
Posts
EW EXPERT
Latest post on 01 February 2011 - 08:51
Yup, she should just walk away. I've known people who've been strung along, moved out here with all the associated costs, then has their start date postponed and a few weeks later been told that they're no longer needed, so they have to pack back up and go home again... at their cost. Unless you have a watertight contract signed before coming out, forget it. Verbal agreements aren't worth the hot air and emails should be taken with a pinch of salt. Of course, if you've got time and cash to spare, you could always risk it, but I would prefer spending £10k on a firework display - the effect is slightly more pleasant, but comes down to the same thing. Be under no illusions here - employers will try it on and push that to whole new levels, even within respected companies. There is a labour law, but it can be got around and flaunted in so many ways, without so much as a slap on the wrist for the company.
4329
Posts
EW MASTER
Latest post on 01 February 2011 - 08:43
Also (this is my own question) for my friend and all of you. WHY WHY WHY are they still responding to emails if the work day is over? Is Dubai a place where working hours aren't always respected (will my DH be a slave to his blackberry?) You really can't mean this? Can you? It's not just Dubai either....
4747
Posts
EW MASTER
Latest post on 01 February 2011 - 08:19
, Jim. *Ahem* :cool: OK, GGP. Since you helped me out on my Doha vs London thread, here goes. What your friend is experiencing sounds a lot like what my husband did in his offer to come to Dubai and once he was here. Right from the beginning, things kept going back and forth with the offer. It was ridiculously low and lacking in benefits. He negotiated it up, but it still wasn't that great. He came for the experience and to work overseas. The company didn't give him benefits that were stated in his contract - such as car allowance. He kept fighting for it, and after a year, they told him that he's not a Level whatever it is that is entitled to it. Their HR dep't is completely clueless about what is happening and they only help "their own". My husband is not western but he was well liked by the western management. They supported him and tried to get HR to support him too. HR refused to support him. The opportunity in London was suggested to him by his direct manager and discussed with the regional director. We both really wanted this because the ME branch of the company was making large cuts in staff over the past year or year and a half. Get this - after my husband had taken the contract in London and we were waiting for his visa, he got an e-mail saying that he would be cut from the company. :\: The biggest problem in this region is, if you do come and for whatever reason, you don't like the job or the conditions and you want to leave, you have to pay back the recruiting costs and you could be banned from the UAE. Even if you leave a job after 18 months or 2 years, the company can refuse to give you the NOC (No Objection Letter) and you're stuck not being allowed to even get another job. So, for your friend, if the offer in London is a good one, I really think she should take that. You never know, some good offers might come up later on. if they are being difficult now then i would go for the london one. this is what it is like it wont change, and quite often they say one thing but when it actually comes down to finding the money they dont have it so they then change their mind. its a fact of life here, one example, engineer taken on paid for 2 months and then the company decided to cut the salary by 25% can they do this, no, but can they do this, yes.
4747
Posts
EW MASTER
Latest post on 01 February 2011 - 08:16
The biggest problem in this region is, if you do come and for whatever reason, you don't like the job or the conditions and you want to leave, you have to pay back the recruiting costs and you could be banned from the UAE. Even if you leave a job after 18 months or 2 years, the company can refuse to give you the NOC (No Objection Letter) and you're stuck not being allowed to even get another job. . Not any more - the law has changed, NOC no longer exist. technically thats right and technically its wrong. the new rules came into force beg of january. if you earn more than 12k then you do not need a NOC if you earn less than 12k then you do.
123
Posts
EW NEWBIE
Latest post on 01 February 2011 - 08:14
This all sounds very common in my opinion. GGP, to tell you the truth, if your neighbour is stressed out about this I wonder if she would be able to work here. Contracts can be amended any time, benefits downgraded, you can get fired for no reason at any time and even if you are given a great package you may get asked to do work that is completely out of your field and has no relation to what is in your job description.
619
Posts
EW GURU
Latest post on 01 February 2011 - 07:55
Very good points, mc. Both my husband and I and many people we know have experienced this. Companies use scare tactics against employees as they have nothing to lose.
1759
Posts
EW EXPERT
Latest post on 01 February 2011 - 07:10
According to http://www.dubaifaqs.com/labour-law-uae.php as of January - you may be subject to a ban under certain circumstances - would be a good idea for your friend to study this before committing to a dodgy employer. Oh and BTW - unless you are with some multinationals - your contract will always provide some way for the employer to cancel - if they decide they want to get rid of you - they can and will. Do you have the option to take legal recourse if you feel it has been done unfairly? - Yes. Can you afford the time, money, stress? Only you can decide. That's the reality of working in the GCC - most are not affected by the possibility, but we are aware that it could happen to us. <em>edited by marycatherine on 01/02/2011</em>
687
Posts
EW GURU
Latest post on 01 February 2011 - 07:03
Kim67: LOL I can empathise thoroughly with your circumstances! It's no wonder we are all aging so rapidly! Natalie8: That is truly horrendous. So Draconian!
2222
Posts
EW EXPERT
Latest post on 01 February 2011 - 06:58
The biggest problem in this region is, if you do come and for whatever reason, you don't like the job or the conditions and you want to leave, you have to pay back the recruiting costs and you could be banned from the UAE. Even if you leave a job after 18 months or 2 years, the company can refuse to give you the NOC (No Objection Letter) and you're stuck not being allowed to even get another job. . Not any more - the law has changed, NOC no longer exist.
95
Posts
EW NEWBIE
Latest post on 01 February 2011 - 06:52
I'm just seriously curious about the work practices in Dubai now that I find myself packing up my life to move there. Until now, I didn't think lack of professionalism could be hazardous to your mental health...and now I'm learning that the crackberry addiction will never end. I'm a little concerned about working outside of work hours. GGP, that is [b'>anywhere [/b'>these days, not just Dubai, so I don't think you will escape it where ever you are, I'm sorry to say. 12 years ago, before I had kids & before sms, my CEO would leave me v'mails & emails at all times of the night. I'm sorry to say I would work from about 8am till 10 or 11pm. Probably why I didn't have kids till late in life :-/. In Australia, if you are in the corporate arena no one works 9 - 5pm. No one. And certainly from the beginnings of my career in 1988 that has never been the case if you wanted to progress. If they do, they are judged for it - even if they are efficient and can get the work done in that time. My DH is up for work by 10am, still going at midnight and several times a week will have meetings scheduled for past midnight. He generally does not go to bed till 2 or 3 am. Now he is not working every minute of that time every day (he tries to fit in fitness activities and some time with the kids), but there would be many days he is. It is a global economy. People work across time zones. People are afraid of redundancy. It is common practice and I'm really shocked and surprised that it sounds like it's not done in London! I don't know how they have missed it...or maybe it's just particular professions??? edited by Buy me a Pony on 01/02/2011 BMAP, sounds like we're married to the same guy. My husband got about about 10am yesterday and is still sitting there working 27 hours later. He sleeps three or four hours a day, usually between about 6am-10am but every couple of days he just works through.
619
Posts
EW GURU
Latest post on 01 February 2011 - 06:49
, Jim. *Ahem* :cool: OK, GGP. Since you helped me out on my Doha vs London thread, here goes. What your friend is experiencing sounds a lot like what my husband did in his offer to come to Dubai and once he was here. Right from the beginning, things kept going back and forth with the offer. It was ridiculously low and lacking in benefits. He negotiated it up, but it still wasn't that great. He came for the experience and to work overseas. The company didn't give him benefits that were stated in his contract - such as car allowance. He kept fighting for it, and after a year, they told him that he's not a Level whatever it is that is entitled to it. Their HR dep't is completely clueless about what is happening and they only help "their own". My husband is not western but he was well liked by the western management. They supported him and tried to get HR to support him too. HR refused to support him. The opportunity in London was suggested to him by his direct manager and discussed with the regional director. We both really wanted this because the ME branch of the company was making large cuts in staff over the past year or year and a half. Get this - after my husband had taken the contract in London and we were waiting for his visa, he got an e-mail saying that he would be cut from the company. :\: The biggest problem in this region is, if you do come and for whatever reason, you don't like the job or the conditions and you want to leave, you have to pay back the recruiting costs and you could be banned from the UAE. Even if you leave a job after 18 months or 2 years, the company can refuse to give you the NOC (No Objection Letter) and you're stuck not being allowed to even get another job. So, for your friend, if the offer in London is a good one, I really think she should take that. You never know, some good offers might come up later on.
271
Posts
EW NEWBIE
Latest post on 01 February 2011 - 03:49
I was really hoping to get away from the constant bb buzzing. :(
141
Posts
EW NEWBIE
Latest post on 01 February 2011 - 02:48
It's certainly done in London. My OH's Blackberry is never out of his sight, day or night, and he is often taking calls as we're turning the light out at night.
687
Posts
EW GURU
Latest post on 01 February 2011 - 02:03
I'm just seriously curious about the work practices in Dubai now that I find myself packing up my life to move there. Until now, I didn't think lack of professionalism could be hazardous to your mental health...and now I'm learning that the crackberry addiction will never end. I'm a little concerned about working outside of work hours. GGP, that is [b'>anywhere [/b'>these days, not just Dubai, so I don't think you will escape it where ever you are, I'm sorry to say. 12 years ago, before I had kids & before sms, my CEO would leave me v'mails & emails at all times of the night. I'm sorry to say I would work from about 8am till 10 or 11pm. Probably why I didn't have kids till late in life :-/. In Australia, if you are in the corporate arena no one works 9 - 5pm. No one. And certainly from the beginnings of my career in 1988 that has never been the case if you wanted to progress. If they do, they are judged for it - even if they are efficient and can get the work done in that time. My DH is up for work by 10am, still going at midnight and several times a week will have meetings scheduled for past midnight. He generally does not go to bed till 2 or 3 am. Now he is not working every minute of that time every day (he tries to fit in fitness activities and some time with the kids), but there would be many days he is. It is a global economy. People work across time zones. People are afraid of redundancy. It is common practice and I'm really shocked and surprised that it sounds like it's not done in London! I don't know how they have missed it...or maybe it's just particular professions??? <em>edited by Buy me a Pony on 01/02/2011</em>
271
Posts
EW NEWBIE
Latest post on 01 February 2011 - 01:16
Haven't read all the replies, so excuse me if I've missed something or am repeating. Am speaking from an HR person's perspective... Like any profession, there are good players and bad players. She may have just struck an incompetent HR person. If she really wants the UAE job, I would be advising her to speak to the person who is responsible for managing her over there - presumably the one who had the interview with her and decided that she was "the one" they had to have. Screw the HR guy, who is just a messenger and may have his wires crossed or may not. Sometimes the communication between management and HR is very poor. But the one who is going to make any decisions or fight for her regarding her level of remuneration is the manager and up his/her line of command. Having said that, I too would be wary of taking that step to join the company. If it was a local job, fair enough, it's easy to say after a couple of weeks "this is not working out" but with UAE, it's a totally different story. she did email her boss+hr guy laying out the outrageous behavior and then the hr guy replied to the email right away, and sent a text message confirming a telephone meeting tomorrow morning to discuss. So I think we're all waiting to see what happens tomorrow. I'm just seriously curious about the work practices in Dubai now that I find myself packing up my life to move there. Until now, I didn't think lack of professionalism could be hazardous to your mental health...and now I'm learning that the crackberry addiction will never end. I'm a little concerned about working outside of work hours. <em>edited by GoldinGlitterPunk on 01/02/2011</em>
687
Posts
EW GURU
Latest post on 01 February 2011 - 01:14
Okay, so she's sat here (looking over my shoulder!) and she followed earlier advice and emailed future boss ccing HR guy. She explained the salary differences+time limits+no further communication and received a prompt email and text message back saying that they were unable to get approval for the slightly higher salary but that since she is entitled to 50 days of holiday, she can cash in 10 and achieve the higher salary (or however many she wants). HR guy has also asked to speak tomorrow at 8am. I feel like it might take too much time for her to get all required documents in a timely manner. How possible is it for the company to rescind her offer just because? (or am I just being overly paranoid--it's just if I was being treated this way, it's how I would feel). OK, just saw this, sorry. It doesn't bode well. At the moment, she holds all the power. They want her, she is in the best bargaining position because she is not yet an employee. Once she signs over, she has lost all her chips. If they can not, or will not give her what they said they would now, then what hope is there once she has joined? I would be questioning the level of respect or need for her role, frankly if they are letting her down so soon. Was there talk about 50 days holiday during the interview phase? Or is it the compromise the manager has worked out to get her the money they promised her? I don't know...I think I would still be wary. And yes, if she decides to go for it, make sure she gets it documented and that she is aware she will have to earn the additional salary after a certain time in order to get it paid out - it will not be paid in her monthy wage unless that too is written into the package offer.
687
Posts
EW GURU
Latest post on 01 February 2011 - 01:06
Haven't read all the replies, so excuse me if I've missed something or am repeating. Am speaking from an HR person's perspective... Like any profession, there are good players and bad players. She may have just struck an incompetent HR person. If she really wants the UAE job, I would be advising her to speak to the person who is responsible for managing her over there - presumably the one who had the interview with her and decided that she was "the one" they had to have. Screw the HR guy, who is just a messenger and may have his wires crossed or may not. Sometimes the communication between management and HR is very poor. But the one who is going to make any decisions or fight for her regarding her level of remuneration is the manager and up his/her line of command. Having said that, I too would be wary of taking that step to join the company. If it was a local job, fair enough, it's easy to say after a couple of weeks "this is not working out" but with UAE, it's a totally different story.
271
Posts
EW NEWBIE
Latest post on 01 February 2011 - 01:04
would it be naughty to admit we keep ours on vibrate?
858
Posts
EW GURU
Latest post on 01 February 2011 - 00:40
What, you do not keep it on "loud" for the night? Well of course, silly girl, thought that was OBVIOUS, no?!!!! :\:
1184
Posts
EW OLDHAND
Latest post on 01 February 2011 - 00:28
What, you do not keep it on "loud" for the night?
858
Posts
EW GURU
Latest post on 01 February 2011 - 00:24
and I thought the days of us sleeping with blackberries under our pillows were over...oh wait, I quit working so at least mine are. Under the pillow, Nuh-uh, that may muffle that stupid tune!! Company Rule Number 628, paragraph 26 states Blackberry must remain on top of pillow, next to ear, at all times whilst employee is wasting what could be valuable working time resting.
 
 

ON EXPATWOMAN TODAY