Peaceful Parenting: Sleep Training

I was just passing some links on to a friend and thought this site might be good to post here http://www.parentingscience.com/index.html Its beautifully researched and referenced and very informative about all things baby :) article about "ferberising" (controlled crying) http://www.parentingscience.com/Ferber-method.html alternatives to CIO : http://www.parentingscience.com/infant-sleep-training.html

awww shucks :)

Standing ovation for your post Kiwispiers :D :D :D And spot on with all your points!!!

I won't quote as my post will end up pages long :D but I think your post is great, kiwispiers. It doesn't have to be one camp or the other at all and this idea that you have to be at polar opposites is just wrong, IMO. As is leaving a baby to cry alone for hours on end, especially a tiny baby, but again that's just my opinion. I'm sure many, many babies will never need to either sleep in a parent's bed all the time or be 'trained' to sleep. They just sleep, and that's the end of that (and I am very jealous of their mums!). I think it's only very rare situations where you need to actively undertake serious 'sleep training', thankfully, and I don't envy those who are in this position. Equally, I don't envy those whose babies rely on co-sleeping as I know that doesn't work for me. As BFC says, we all need to work out what suits us, our babies and our families. I wish our little toad would enjoy a nap or two in with me when I get the luxury of an afternoon kip but sadly, he'd think that was open season for playtime and neither of us would get any sleep! I do miss having him in our bed but I don't miss the light, disjointed sleep I got as a result. Speaking of the little toad, he"s just woken up...

i don't know why i respond to any post on here when my brain is not working as properly as it should be. LOL!:)

I found the same, DS seems to go through patches where he needs me more than others, when we co-sleep he tends to not really wake up, he'll occasionally stir and I give him a wee pat and he rolls over and we both go back to sleep. It has always amazed me that I can be asleep and yet somehow still aware of his presence, I have never once woken to him crying as I'm always awake at the first stirring, like our sleep cycles have synchronized. Nature is a mysterious and wonderful thing. I'm not super keen on Dr Sears though, I agree to a degree with a lot of his message but I feel he is a bit superior in the way he gives it, and has been guilty himself of citing research out of context, when clearly he has the education to know better. Funnily enough I have also learnt a lot from his arch rival Dr Weissbluth, who does advocate CIO, (and I respectfully ignore his advice on that one) but explains in a very evidence based way, about circadian rhythms, statistical sleep patterns and the need to avoid letting your child get over tired, (as he calls it "letting your sleep tank run dry". To his credit, while his blog is very pro-CIO, his book more or less says just to be consistent in your parenting style whether it be co-sleeping and soothing, or separate rooms and ignoring (in his opinion a waste of time earlier than 4 months) and does not make any suggestions re: feeding schedules. [b'>i do read about different parenting techniques and styles, and yes i think that the attachment parenting styles are the closest to how i go about things; but probably, like most mamas my parenting style is mainly based off my intuition. i agree 100% with what you said, "Nature is a mysterious and wonderful thing."and i trust that most of all! as drs cant always be trusted, no matter who they are. and i have o admit, lately, i have been to exhausted to really find the time to read anything except EW, and itsy bitsy yoga... lol,[/b'> <em>edited by julzandrews on 13/07/2011</em>

my dd is 7 months and we have co slept on and off since she was born, co sleeping right now is the only way for her to sleep at the moment since she has been teething, if i don't bring her to my bed she will wake up like every other hour.when she wakes up next to me she seems really content and soo happy. also i am very into the attachment parenting thing, i read about it on the dr sears site before i had my dd, and decided i wanted to go that route as much as i could. apparently its working pretty darn well i am always getting asked about my dd's good behavior. I found the same, DS seems to go through patches where he needs me more than others, when we co-sleep he tends to not really wake up, he'll occasionally stir and I give him a wee pat and he rolls over and we both go back to sleep. It has always amazed me that I can be asleep and yet somehow still aware of his presence, I have never once woken to him crying as I'm always awake at the first stirring, like our sleep cycles have synchronized. Nature is a mysterious and wonderful thing. I'm not super keen on Dr Sears though, I agree to a degree with a lot of his message but I feel he is a bit superior in the way he gives it, and has been guilty himself of citing research out of context, when clearly he has the education to know better. Funnily enough I have also learnt a lot from his arch rival Dr Weissbluth, who does advocate CIO, (and I respectfully ignore his advice on that one) but explains in a very evidence based way, about circadian rhythms, statistical sleep patterns and the need to avoid letting your child get over tired, (as he calls it "letting your sleep tank run dry". To his credit, while his blog is very pro-CIO, his book more or less says just to be consistent in your parenting style whether it be co-sleeping and soothing, or separate rooms and ignoring (in his opinion a waste of time earlier than 4 months) and does not make any suggestions re: feeding schedules.

Thanks for posting, kiwispiers. I enjoy many of your posts :). I was slightly concerned that you were appearing to write off all the links below - glad to see this is not the case! As you say, the one Aryanwynn commented on, and many of the others, are indeed evidence-based. I agree that sensationalising the issue doesn't help; so much of what we read - across the board - when it comes to parenting is written by people with strongly-held beliefs and I think it's up to us to read as much as we can bearing in mind that *all* authors have biases based on their own knowledge and experiences. xx edited by BFC on 12/07/2011 entirely my fault I can see how my post would have read that way, the result of typing while breastfeeding and dealing with my manic little monkey :), I guess with a science background I like to see objectively written articles and you're right, the links below do mostly point to some good ones, I think the site would be stronger if they removed some of the other links. I enjoy your posts too BFC, very relevant and informative, and never judgemental :)

nice post kiwispiers

julz..... I haven't met a 7 month old that had 'bad behaviour'!!!! well lol i don't know what to say.. lol! : )

Thanks for posting, kiwispiers. I enjoy many of your posts :). I was slightly concerned that you were appearing to write off all the links below - glad to see this is not the case! As you say, the one Aryanwynn commented on, and many of the others, are indeed evidence-based. I agree that sensationalising the issue doesn't help; so much of what we read - across the board - when it comes to parenting is written by people with strongly-held beliefs and I think it's up to us to read as much as we can bearing in mind that *all* authors have biases based on their own knowledge and experiences. xx <em>edited by BFC on 12/07/2011</em>

As I said below, my personal leanings are towards attachment parenting although I am by no means a die-hard attachment parenter, I bought a sling but never used it, and happily push my equally happy and rather heavy child in a stroller :). I agree entirely with you BFC when you say “I think it's about each mother discovering what is best for her baby and family, and having access to information and support to allow her to do that.”. Because we all have different circumstances, and we are no doubt all trying to do the best we can with our precious little monkeys/lives in general. The link that Arynwynn has posted is a good one and well worth reading for anyone hoping to exclusively breastfeed, in short it explains that in the past there has been a lack of medical knowledge about the mechanisms behind BM production, and incorrect assumption, led medical professionals to believe that they could apply a similar schedule as that of formula feeding. This has now been shown to be incorrect and major organisations like the World Health Organisation, and the American Academy of Pediatrics have issued statements that infants should be nursed whenever they show signs of hunger. I am, as is fairly obvious from my posts, a strong advocate of breastfeeding whenever possible, I don’t believe in vilifying those who choose not to breastfeed but I’d like to think it was a choice and not the result of misinformation leading to failure. Books like Gina Ford’s CLB, and Tracey Hogg’s Baby Whisperer, that promote scheduled 3-4 hourly feeding, discourage “snacking” and suggest attempting to night-wean very early on suggest that the authors either do not understand how breastfeeding works, or see no problem in switching to formula if scheduled feeding is leading to a malnourished infant. While I have seen some exclusively breastfed “Gina Ford” babies, I am so often really surprised to see friends and family who are feeding this way, worry about their baby not gaining weight, and give formula top ups, without even considering that they might simply feed their baby more often, and even more obviously, feed whenever their baby seems hungry even if the book says that they don’t need to be fed. It’s true that most formula fed babies will be “fine”, but it has been shown that FF babies as a group have slightly lower IQ’s, higher infant death rates from disease, increased risk of allergies, and possibly even increased risk of SID’s, so it is certainly worth making sure that women have the tools/knowledge to breastfeed successfully if they choose to do so. I don’t think that merely pushing the “breast is best” slogan is all that helpful, when clearly many women would like to breastfeed but fail to do so. If your infant cries in the night, and you choose to ignore it, you do risk compromising their nutrition. I think that is a statement that can be backed up by medical research. If you put your newborn in another room, you risk being less aware of changes in room temperature, and may be less aware of them becoming quietly distressed due to other environmental factors which is possibly why the risk of SIDs has also been shown to be increased. There are other speculative reasons but not solid evidence and I would tentatively suggest that if you choose to put your newborn in another room it might be because you are making a conscious decision in advance that you will not necessarily immediately respond to any sounds of distress. I do have a background in developmental psychology and I do not believe it is developmentally appropriate to expect a newborn to learn to self soothe. While I do believe that emotionally loaded statements such as “CIO causes brain damage” are without any medical evidence, and are often backed up by references to studies which are discussing victims of long term serious physical abuse and neglect. It is still undoubtedly traumatic, in the short term at least, for a baby to be left alone and ignored while they cry, sometimes for hours at a time. I think it could be particularly frightening for babies who are too young to understand that “mummy is not here now, but that does not mean Mummy is gone forever”. I been in houses where young babies are being “trained” and it does break my heart to hear them crying desperately in a way that I have never ever, in 11 months, heard my baby cry. I would love my child to not need to wake me twice a night for feeding, but I can’t argue that he is not well rested, he goes straight back to sleep and has around 12 hours sleep at night and 3 hours of daytime naps. So in my situation, if I were leave him to cry, it would be for me, not for him and while I’m a little tired, I’m certainly still able to function, so I couldn’t justify it. I am aware that other people have different circumstances and may weigh up their situation differently, that is certainly their choice and I am not judging their motives. I have no problem with the idea of gently teaching good sleep associations, and did make an effort not to create an association with feeding/rocking to sleep but I have always picked my baby up, day or night, if he cries. Again this is not a medical reason, just a personal philosophy that I would like my son to know that Mummy is here for him, whenever he needs her, so that he can feel secure at all times. I don’t think it is necessary to sensationalize the issue, as done is some of the articles linked to on the site below, if you read a lot of the references to studies they are showing things like, brain abnormalities in the part of the brain controlling breathing, in a child who dies from SID’s, a link between children who cry a lot (not children who are “left to cry”) and various behavioural/developmental problems or developmental issues in young babies who suffer serious long term physical abuse. I could just as easily find medical studies showing the effects of sleep torture/ extreme sleep deprivation causing psychosis and then write an article headed “Attachment Parenting causes Psychosis” which would of course be equally unfounded. I am not aware of any research regarding the brain or health of babies who are specifically sleep trained using crying based methods and otherwise well cared for, I think as parents we have to rely on our instinct as well as any available medical knowledge. This post is getting incredibly long, and I could waffle on for hours so I think I’ll stop. Would love to read some other parenting philosophies if people would like to share. I’ve never seen it as an “us” vs “them” battle, I’m not into labels and I think we should always be open to changing our views, life is not black and white. ☺

julz..... I haven't met a 7 month old that had 'bad behaviour'!!!!

My son has never become reliant, but he has all his naps in his cot and he has always started the night in there and come in to bed with me if he wakes up more than once. It is reccomended that the baby be in your room for the first 6 months as the SIDs risk has been shown to be lowered, aside from that I don't think co-sleeping is at all neccesary, but for me it has been easier and enjoyable, I shared a room with him until he was around 9 months and really miss it and I love having him in my bed like a little teddy bear :). I personally am not for CIO techniques and def have leanings towards attachment parenting . edited by kiwispiers on 11/07/2011 lol me too.. i am finding that we have a lot in common : ) my dd is 7 months and we have co slept on and off since she was born, co sleeping right now is the only way for her to sleep at the moment since she has been teething, if i don't bring her to my bed she will wake up like every other hour.when she wakes up next to me she seems really content and soo happy. also i am very into the attachment parenting thing, i read about it on the dr sears site before i had my dd, and decided i wanted to go that route as much as i could. apparently its working pretty darn well i am always getting asked about my dd's good behavior.

Thanks for these. I found this one really interesting - stuff about BF I had no idea! http://www.drmomma.org/2010/01/case-for-cue-feeding.html Incidentally I used to co-sleep, but now that I'm older and ?wiser, or just less tolerant, baby goes into the crib - it was yummy to sleep with my LOs but now I just want my space! Having said that, from about 4am we do end up with a bedful of little warm bodies - nothing like taking advantage in the wee hours lol

I'd like them! Would love it if you would post. I think that parenting is full of challenges...and one of them is learning to cope with a baby who doesn't sleep as much as we would like or expect. I'm a big believer in finding a way that meets both mum's and baby's needs, ideally working with rather than against baby's natural sleep patterns.

BFC by "argument" I meant the argument against sleep training, as in the reasons why it might not be a good idea. I am happy to give my reasons if the OP would like them, :), there have def been a lot of pro-training threads lately.

Ah, OK, I thought you were writing off the entire list! Which surprised me, because there are some excellent articles and books included. I don't think of it as one team against another, though - does it really seem that way to you? I think it's about each mother discovering what is best for her baby and family, and having access to information and support to allow her to do that. xx

Sorry, that was a short post, I have been busy with bathtime/bedtime and am now cooking dinner for the other man in my life :) but will write a more substantiated response later tonight or tomorrow morning. In short, I see bad science in any of the articles which suggest that a link has been found between CIO and brain damage/autism/SIDs and go on to reference scientific studies which if you read them make no such claims themselves and have been cited well out of context. Some of the links on the site are good, the many dodgy ones let the team down. will give some examples later, stay tuned..... :) <em>edited by kiwispiers on 11/07/2011</em>

I'm not sure there's an argument, is there? But I'm curious - which of the links do you take issue with, kiwispiers? There are loads on the list!

My son has never become reliant, but he has all his naps in his cot and he has always started the night in there and come in to bed with me if he wakes up more than once. It is reccomended that the baby be in your room for the first 6 months as the SIDs risk has been shown to be lowered, aside from that I don't think co-sleeping is at all neccesary, but for me it has been easier and enjoyable, I shared a room with him until he was around 9 months and really miss it and I love having him in my bed like a little teddy bear :). I personally am not for CIO techniques and def have leanings towards attachment parenting but I'm not a fan of backing it up with bad science, as I feel the links below do, IMHO it just weakens the argument. <em>edited by kiwispiers on 11/07/2011</em>

I have always wanted DD to sleep with me on the nights DH is away, but when she is older. But DH said no as we are afraid she would become reliant on it.

Frances, Can it be that co-sleeping doesnt work wonders to everyone and that there is no universal truth? Co-sleeping doesnt work for me and DD. She started to sleep through the night the 1st night we put her cot in her own room at 8 months! Before not only she struggled to fall asleep (in cot and our bed alike) but at times she was up 4-8 times a night. I work full time. DD thinks our bed is the perfect playground - not a place to peacefully fall asleep. So no - co-sleeping did not work for us.

You have to be careful with your husband, mine is a super heavy sleeper and I would never sleep with our baby between us, when I do co-sleep I keep my baby higher up in the bed and wiggle down a bit myself so that there is no way I would pull the duvet up over him. We've co-slept on and off since he was around 4 months old without a problem.

Cool, thanks ;) Its just something I always had wondered about in case we ever needed to bed share in a hotel or whatever.

not hard for me, he whacks me on the head until I wake up :)

When you are bedsharing/breastfeeding you tend to be in a sleep state that makes you very aware of your babies presence, it wouldn't be so safe if you were the kind of heavy sleeper who wouldn't notice if your baby woke up thats why they don't recommend bed sharing for anyone who has been drinking/drug taking.

When he wakes doesn't he want to crawl around, or do you just naturally wake?