I know it's another long sleep post but I really need help! :( | ExpatWoman.com
 

I know it's another long sleep post but I really need help! :(

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EW EXPLORER
Latest post on 13 August 2011 - 07:42

Hi again ladies...as a few of you know I've posted a few times on here regarding DS's sleep but I really need some support...
To go back to the beginning, DS was born 13 and a half weeks ago a healthy 4.02kg. From birth until around 7 weeks he was an angel sleepwise...waking only once in the night to feed and sleeping beautifully, swaddled in his bassinet with his sleepy sheep white noise. At around 9 weeks, which I'm sure was developmental, he started to shorten his day naps to around 30 mins which was frustrating but at least he was still sleeping well at night. However by 10 weeks this lack of daytime sleep started impacting his night sleep and he was starting to wake a few times and needed to be picked up to go back to sleep. We also introduced a dummy fairly early as he was and still is a sucky baby. By 11 weeks not only was his night sleep getting worse, but so was his feeding as he was clearly overtired and pulling off the breast. We thought reflux at one point as he gurges quite alot and tried some meds on a paed's advice but soon realised this wasn't it and took him off them. I had to express and feed him some bottles which I did to up my supply and also tide him over and make sure he was eating when not feeding at the breast properly. Luckily he doesn't seem to have a preference for a bottle and switches between both quite well (now back on breast about 95% of the time and is feeding better). At exactly 12 weeks to the day we decided to go visit Cecile. She got us to try doing the 20/5/20 for one nap a day (20 mins with him patting down, dummy etc but not picking up or talking or making eye contact, 5 mins leave the room and then 20 mins more of the previous). That night he did an amazing night (with no intervention) and slept 7.15 to 3am, fed and slept until 7am and we thought hey...maybe he's working this out himself...but no, I think that was just a one off bday present to himself! So that day we tried the 20/5/20 and he didn't cry and fell asleep by the 2nd 20 mins and had a good nap and we thought, wow this is fab. Next day, not so fab, he cried the entire time but ended up falling asleep towards the end. Next day again the same. Over the week this has improved, he doesn't cry as much and tends to just fight but started falling asleep in the first 20 mins. Yesterday he actually fell asleep almost immediately. So daytime is improving slowly. Night is another matter though. We moved onto just patting him down and giving the dummy instead of picking him up which was working however he was still waking just as often (every hour or even less). At the same time we decided to try and put him in a sleeping bag rather than swaddle him in case this was annoying him. No real change. After speaking to Cecile again she is now advising leaving him to cry for 20 mins at every waking through the night which just doesn't feel right to me as he is only 13.5 weeks old. She basically is saying that the patting down isn't working as he is waking just as often and we need to move on and that if we don't it will only get worse! :( She also said you can try smaller intervals of leaving him to cry but that it will take longer and smaller intervals only teaches him to cry and expect you to come. When I asked if 20 mins was not the same she said well if doesn't work at 20 mins you then have to move to 30 or even 45 mins which is something I know I could never do, not at this age anyway. So yesterday my hubby, MIL who is here from the UK and I all talked it through (thank god for MIL who has been sharing the night shift with me so I at least get half a nights sleep although she leaves in a week!!) and we thought no we can't let him cry, we'll just keep trying to pat him down in the hopes it will get better. Then last night was the worst ever - he was waking every 20-30 to sometimes 45-60 mins in the first half of the night (MIL shift poor thing) until around 1.30 when he was actually hungry. Every waking you could see he wanted to sleep but just kept jerking around. So after I fed him I abandoned the sleeping bag and reswaddled him and he then slept 2 hours, and after waking again at 4 and it taking almost 45 mins of patting and shushing and not picking up he then slept through until 6.10am. So one decision has been made, I am going to start swaddling again to see whether that will help as not sure if the fact it's getting worse is because we put him in a bag and he keeps waking himself up....OR that if in fact Cecile is right in saying if we continue doing what we're doing it is only going to get worse...
Would love some advice and support from you lovely ladies..sorry for the long post but I really don't know what to do and I'm just not comfortable letting him cry. He is the loveliest, happiest baby always smiling and talking and I don't want that to change. We waited such a long time to have him so I don't want to do any damage to him emotionally or anything like that by letting him cry but at the same time we cant go on as we are...Please tell me some of you have been here and that it DOES get better, not worse as Cecile is saying it might!! :(

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EW EXPERT
Latest post on 14 August 2011 - 16:04
b$gger :(, you'll get there I'm sure.
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EW EXPLORER
Latest post on 14 August 2011 - 15:37
well after a good night today has been a disaster nap wise...has not settled for more than 20 mins at a time, even in my arms! Give me strength and patience....
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EW EXPLORER
Latest post on 14 August 2011 - 10:15
no am in no rush, just was saying he'll be older etc...yes I was thinking that perhaps he was having an early 4 month regression, lets hope so!!
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EW EXPERT
Latest post on 14 August 2011 - 10:10
haha, you obviously haven't heard of 4 month sleep regression ;),although maybe your guy is going through that early and you'll have a smooth ride later, hope so. I don't think solids make ANY difference to sleep either, unless you had supply issues or were restricting breastfeeds too much and your baby was under-fed beforehand. We started solids at 6 1/2 months and if anything they made things worse because they gave DS reflux, don't feel tempted to rush that one, you're more likely to end up with food refusal issues etc if you do.
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EW EXPLORER
Latest post on 14 August 2011 - 10:02
those pekemoes look interesting, maybe I'll get one shipped to Oz to try out while we are there. I originally had bought these love me baby wraps - http://www.lovetodream.com.au/babySwaddle_original.htm - but DS didn't like them as a newborn, perhaps I'll try them again at some point but he doesn't seem to be a baby who sleeps with arms up. When we left him in the sleeping bag they were all over the place, out to the side up in the air but never up, so maybe the pekemoe would be better. Those safe-t-sleep items look good too - thanks for the links. Yeah who knows how he'll go when we're in Oz...well by the time we're back he'll be around 5 months, closer to solids and hopefully sleeping better by then!
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EW EXPERT
Latest post on 14 August 2011 - 09:47
That sounds like he is getting back on track :) I was just wondering if you were heading back home soon, and was going to say, don't bother doing anything much in the meantime as you will have to go through it all again when you switch time zones :( He has probably been extra hungry and usnettled with the growth spurt too, they do insticntively feed more often to boost your supply during those times. Stick with the swaddle (and probably the dummy) for the flight over, and then work on it all over there and most importantly, when you get back again. After swaddling I used a muslin pekemoe for a while instead of a sleeping bag http://www.pekemoe.co.nz/, and a safe-t-sleep sleepbelt until he figured out tummy sleeping http://www.safetsleep.com/shop/safe-t-sleep-sleepwrap-key-b/ and also airwrap (safe) cot bumpers to stop arms and legs going through the sides of the cot http://www.safetsleep.com/shop/cot-bumpers/, you might want to do a little shopping ;)
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EW EXPLORER
Latest post on 14 August 2011 - 09:36
thanks kiwis...well last night was better, first half of night he slept from 7 until 1am (with brief awakening at 8 but asleep in 5 mins), fed, then back asleep until 3.30, fell asleep in 5 then slept until 5.30 where I decided to feed him. At this point I tried to keep him in bed with me but that didn't work as he thought hey it's play time with mummy LOL! So got him back to sleep in arms at around 615 then he slept until 7.30. Will keep experimenting and hopefully last night is the start of a better phase. I do think reswaddling made a huge difference compared to the nights he was in his sleeping bag and waking almost every sleep cycle! Thanks ladies for all your support. He's definitely developed alot the last few weeks, and has grown about 4 cm in 2 weeks so I'm sure that is contributing to all this as well. We're Sydney bound in a few weeks so he's bound to be unsettled for a wee bit but at least I'll have help from my Mum there too!
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EW EXPERT
Latest post on 14 August 2011 - 09:33
I completely agree girls! As I have so often said on here..."The more they sleep, the more they sleep." I'm quoting my very wise sister who's a mother of four. Well rested babies sleep more soundly and for longer. One of my children is pretty flexible and she copes with disruptions to routine and manages to sleep anywhere when she needs to then can sleep a full night when finally thrown into her own bed. My other two...upset the routine, feed them late, go out too late in the day, be around noisy people/places near dinner & bed time, mess with the system and miss their early bedtime and we are almost guaranteed to have a cr*ppy, restless night. To get all three of them to have a good night of sleep, I need to get the dinner/bath/bed routine happening early so they are all in bed before they are over-tired. It's a daily fine line to walk. ;)
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EW EXPERT
Latest post on 13 August 2011 - 20:44
something that older wiser friends told me when I was pregnant was that babies all go through different phases and stages with sleep, and it is not always a steady progression to longer and longer sleeps, just when you think it is all sorted, they regress. Certainly turned out to be the case for us. Did find though that bedtime needed to be early for us too, it was around 8pm in the early days but after the first few months it became more like 6 and has been as early as 5:30, too late bedtimes have almost always related in more night wakings. I would say though, that as much as you'd like it to be one cause, it is generally more complex, so it might be a matter of finding the perfect bedtime and naptimes, the perfect room temperature and bedding, the perfect settling method and then constantly readjusting as your baby changes. AS much as the authors of many books would like you to believe, there is not perfect formula. At certain developmental points, as pentel said, his sleep was affected, for a while he had what seemed like night terrors, where he would wake screaming, and I figured out after a while he was actually crying in his sleep and the best thing t do was very gently put my hand on him for a minute until he settled down, picking him up would wake him fully. most of the time he did the normal "eh eh eh, and as you say only cried when I didn't get there fast enough, its tough because truthfully, sometimes if you just waited, they would go back to sleep, but you also know that if you leave it, they might fully wake up and then will be much harder to calm down, you kin-of get a feel for it over time. Likewise you figure out when to feed, I know that if DS wakes at certain times, like anything after 3am, then its better to get up and feed him, even if I could get him back to sleep without it, because he is just that bit hungry enough that he will keep waking every hour or so if I don't whereas offering a feed at 10pm or earlier has never made a difference to his night waking pattern. Try keeping a sleep log, and see if offering a feed makes any difference to the rest of the night.
Anonymous (not verified)
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EW NEWBIE
Latest post on 13 August 2011 - 18:53
hi sydneygal.... repeat.. this too shall pass!! babies are such dynamic little creatures, it all changes eventually so there is always light at the end of the tunnel!! something you've written about him snapping or jerking awake smacks of overtiredness to me, early bedtimes might be the answer (my baby is in bed by 5.30pm most nights, sometimes 5!!) and she needs it.. I'm not being a victorian mommy!! hourly wakings happened around 14/15 weeks and lasted a couple of weeks and then just recently.. both times I think down to big development spurts, certainly recently she'd just mastered crawling, clapping and some pretty sophisticated babbling (ha ha ha!!) all in a week. have you looked at Dr Sears website? http://www.askdrsears.com/topics/sleep-problems/8-infant-sleep-facts-every-parent-should-know there's another good site called the wonder weeks that explains how development impacts on sleep patterns (another issue to consider!!)
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EW EXPERT
Latest post on 13 August 2011 - 17:14
He's going down between 7 and 7.30 but yes I will try and move it a bit earlier tonight, around 6.30-7 if we can. In terms of the 3 reasons I think the 2nd two are part of the issue - definitely uncomfortable being unswaddled so will go back to swaddling....not too hot or cold I think but definitely tired! And he does obviously need reassurance too... thanks so much for all the suggestions and support - I really appreciate it and pray tonight is a better night. x the tiredness is unfortunately a self-fulfilling prophesy. Some babies (like my DS) work like clockwork and if you miss the nap/bed slot, you just know you're going to get it in the neck later. I also found that sometimes if nothing's apparently wrong with the actual problem period, rewind and see if there should be tweaks made in the run-up. DD would be incredibly and increasingly grouchy from about 16h30 until bedtime (19h), where she wouldn't settle easily, even after a lovely bedtime routine. She was having solids by then and I would give her her dinner at 18h because if DH rushed home, we could at least have dinner all together... one day we were round the in-laws, who eat at 17h... DD ate, loved it, was happy, played until bedtime, we did the normal routine and she fell asleep pretty much immediately. It'd never crossed my mind that her dinnertime was "wrong" and that once she'd got grumpy because she was hungry, the tiredness compounded it. Should have known really... I'm ridiculously short-tempered when I'm hungry and the apple never falls far from the tree!
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EW EXPLORER
Latest post on 13 August 2011 - 16:35
He's going down between 7 and 7.30 but yes I will try and move it a bit earlier tonight, around 6.30-7 if we can. In terms of the 3 reasons I think the 2nd two are part of the issue - definitely uncomfortable being unswaddled so will go back to swaddling....not too hot or cold I think but definitely tired! And he does obviously need reassurance too... thanks so much for all the suggestions and support - I really appreciate it and pray tonight is a better night. x Hope you get it sorted out Sydneygal. DD is very jerky too which is why I queried reflux as we had both discussed it on a previous thread. Although DD does have a medical condition, I am wondering whether the extra blanket has made the difference in reducing her kicks and thrusts which are also waking her. Even though the temp gauge may be set to 25 or 26 degrees which would be fine to leave baby in a swaddle only, the airflow with our AC is quite strong where the head of our bed is and where DD is sleeping. Conversely, DD hates getting into the car seat and going anywhere in the car. Again I think this is a temperature issue as even though I have the AC set to cool in the car, DD's head and back are very sweaty and she wails whenever she sits in the car seat : (
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EW EXPLORER
Latest post on 13 August 2011 - 15:54
oh and in regards to crying, the thing is he doesn't wake crying...he just wakes and either chats or starts squawking. He only will cry if he's not attended too which doesn't really happen much as I am right there...
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EW EXPLORER
Latest post on 13 August 2011 - 15:52
He's going down between 7 and 7.30 but yes I will try and move it a bit earlier tonight, around 6.30-7 if we can. In terms of the 3 reasons I think the 2nd two are part of the issue - definitely uncomfortable being unswaddled so will go back to swaddling....not too hot or cold I think but definitely tired! And he does obviously need reassurance too... thanks so much for all the suggestions and support - I really appreciate it and pray tonight is a better night. x
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EW EXPERT
Latest post on 13 August 2011 - 15:25
dont think it's medical, he shows no signs of being in pain and also we had a check up last week and all was well. I have tried holding him at night in bed which often works but even when I lay him down on my bed he still can jerk himself awake so I'm not sure it makes a huge difference. But hey I'm willing to try anything at this point. I don't know if offering the boob will help, he doesn't nuzzle in for food he just seems desperate to sleep :( I do think having him unswaddled has made things worse the last few days so we will see how he goes tonight back in the swaddle. He is in now having a nap swaddled and just hit the hour mark 10 mins ago... Have you tried moving his bedtime forward by 30 minutes? It could be that simple...
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EW EXPERT
Latest post on 13 August 2011 - 15:24
I know the "fresh eyes" is sooo difficult, but that's what we're here for too. I like the way the others have mentioned a bit more lateral thinking too - there are sooo many different ways to tackle such things and we do get so het up about "not creating bad habits", doing things "the right way" and sticking to routines. We get fed so much information that we often can't see the wood for the trees. Imo, small babies only cry for 3 reasons: - they're hungry - they're uncomfortable (hot/ cold, pain, tired...) - they need reassurance. Work through the 3, without assuming anything and I'm sure you'll find the answer (I always seem to overlook the "uncomfortable" one for some reason!)... then do what you need to to solve it.
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EW EXPLORER
Latest post on 13 August 2011 - 15:20
dont think it's medical, he shows no signs of being in pain and also we had a check up last week and all was well. I have tried holding him at night in bed which often works but even when I lay him down on my bed he still can jerk himself awake so I'm not sure it makes a huge difference. But hey I'm willing to try anything at this point. I don't know if offering the boob will help, he doesn't nuzzle in for food he just seems desperate to sleep :( I do think having him unswaddled has made things worse the last few days so we will see how he goes tonight back in the swaddle. He is in now having a nap swaddled and just hit the hour mark 10 mins ago...
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EW EXPERT
Latest post on 13 August 2011 - 14:59
sydneygal...if a short period of co-sleeping is a possibility for you, you could try lying down with him even just for daytime naps at first. If you haven't already tried it, you may find he feeds and drops off to sleep quickly and you'll pass out within seconds of that and finally get some much needed rest. If you can both master feeding while lying down, you may not get as much deep sleep, but it will allow you to get more rest than your current nightime jack-in-the-box routine. ;) Co-cleeping does not have to be forever and can work for short times when you're desperate.
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Latest post on 13 August 2011 - 14:53
... Have you checked his gums, and ruled out ear infection etc, probably isn't but just incase. ks has beaten me to it. Have you absolutely ruled out any other pain/medical issues?
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Latest post on 13 August 2011 - 14:50
When DS went through a month long phase of 90min/hourly waking I also took him into my bed, and generally have sues that approach during unsettled nights, teething etc, generally from around 2am. He didn't ever figure out how to feed lying down, but I kind of learnt how to sleep sitting up ;), but he never really woke up while in bed with me which was great. he was 5 months, I wouldn't have slept that well with him in my bed if he'd been 12 weeks I think but at that age he was still in a bassinet. Have you checked his gums, and ruled out ear infection etc, probably isn't but just incase.
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EW EXPLORER
Latest post on 13 August 2011 - 14:39
hey pentel, how long did the hourly waking go on for you and was it at a similar age? At the moment I'll try anything if only I know there is light at the end of the tunnel, although to be honest bringing him into bed with me is something I'm not entirely sure of - not because of habit forming but because I don't think I'd sleep better that way either...Oh and I do go to bed as soon as possible, to the extent that I hardly get to see DH these days :(
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EW NEWBIE
Latest post on 13 August 2011 - 13:50
if this was me I would be learning how to feed lying down and have the baby in the bed with me overnight or after first waking. I've gone through 2 phases of hourly wakings and this is what got me and the baby through it, I would not be messing about in the middle of the night patting and shushing a baby that wants to be picked up and cuddled... and boobs aren't just for feeding, baby will get an awful lot of comfort from suckling. try not to worry about habits forming, just get through this period, they change so much that what works now won't necessarily work at 6 months etc. I also do not think there's any need to voluntarily leave a baby to cry when you (or Cecille) can not read his mind and see why he's crying! and I heartily recommend a couple of nights going to bed same time as the baby, just to top up your own sleep bank! at least once a fortnight I goto bed by 6pm.. does me the world of good and it's a luxury you can choose when there's only one baby (DH fends for self this night.. shame!) good luck.. baby fog as I recall starts to lift around 16 weeks!
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Latest post on 13 August 2011 - 13:25
He might be like mine with the naps, DS was fine on 45 minutes so long as he had an extra nap in the day (so he was on 4 naps when everyone else's had 3 etc). I could often extend them to 90 minutes and beyond if I popped in his dummy at the first little "eh eh" noises but TBH once I adapted my routine to fit his, and gave up trying to extend the 45 minutes were fine, although certainly found life easier in many ways when they got longer later on though. he now has only one nap a day, but it is 3 hours long and its awesome!, I can actually cook, bake, clean out the cupboards etc AND have a sit down with a cup of tea etc, but I am stuck at home for it. With the short naps, at least you know they will nap around the same when out and about in the pram so you are less trapped at home as you are when you know they need at 2 hours nap etc, so there is a bright side. ;)
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EW EXPLORER
Latest post on 13 August 2011 - 12:57
Hey HAK - he definitely lets me know when he's hungry - he just decided that a wee while ago and it was about 2 hours and 20 min from his last feed, so I do feed on demand. When he's waking at night I don't think it's food though, it seems to be having issues getting past the sleep cycles as it does happen in a pattern, either at 20 mins, or 30 mins or 45 mins, or sometimes on the hour. I haven't tried offering milk as he does seem to want to go back to sleep, he just seems to struggle to do so sometimes and jerks around alot. When he wakes he doesn't necessarily cry straight away, he may just talk and then that talking gets more annoyed sounding if not attended to...Hard to look at with fresh eyes when so tired but I will try...you're right, it's the WHY he's waking up that I just can't work out and wish I could... :( Kiwi - he was perfectly happy - not when I tried to pat him down again, that started off a bit of crying but as soon as I gave up and just started talking to him out came his cheeky smile so I just got him up! Also he's quite happy in the cot at the moment and anyway, I find I instantly wake up when he does :(
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Latest post on 13 August 2011 - 12:38
I have to admit I've speed read quite a bit, so may have missed some points, but my first thought is to just step back a bit - tell me, when he wakes at night, do you feed him? I only ask this because sometimes we get so set in "oh, but he feeds every 3 hours, so he can't be hungry" that we miss what the cue actually is. I simply don't believe that a 13 week old is crying for the fun of it - yes, he's trying to get your attention, but [i'>why[/i'>? (that's the million dollar question!). DD (also nearly 4kg at birth) cluster fed of an evening at around about the same age as your son - in fact, she wanted milk every hour from 19h30 until about 22h30. My first reaction to any small baby crying is to give it milk, which was the right answer for my DD, but not for my son (who just wanted to be left alone and [i'>not[/i'> patted, shushed or fed!). I also think that the "you've got to nip it now or it'll just get worse" is pure scaremongering. What kind of worse? Basically, as long as you are happy with any of the techniques you happen to be using (and would be happy to do with a 12kg older baby!), then that's fine. More often than not, though, when we're talking about small babies' sleep patterns (as opposed to 6-month-old +), the baby changes so much of their own accord that they just grow out of it on their own. DD stopped her cluster-feeding at 5 months old... So, my advice would be to try and take a step back, clear your mind and see the situation with fresh eyes. Forget the theories, forget the daytime patterns and look at your baby for the answer. We sometimes miss how simple the solution can be.
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Latest post on 13 August 2011 - 12:34
oh dear :(, is he happy or grumpy after 35min? he's prob too big for the moses but can you pop him in a large bassinet or arms reach co-sleeper rather than the big cot for now. DS had no problem transitioning later on. Physically getting out of bed def wakes you up so much more.
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Latest post on 13 August 2011 - 12:04
well he just woke from a 35 min nap...argh!! At least this morning he did a bit longer! DH is carrying him around in the ergo now :P I am currently in the same room and my bed is right next to the cot but unfortunately it is too hard to just reach over and attending to him does involve getting up. Tell you what, my back is getting pretty sore too constantly bending over the cot! If only it was just a matter of popping the dummy in...he's such a wriggler that i normally have to lean over, turn him on his side, pat his back and offer the dummy...all while he is writhing about - not an easy task :( That's a good point re: swaddling...so hard to know what to do. At the moment I think his arms and being able to flail around is actually making things worse so we're back to swaddling tonight and see how we go....ahhh so tired!
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Latest post on 13 August 2011 - 11:28
all good, sound like you are doing all the right things and hopefully good day naps will help the night sleep. I do think that dummies are great, but also they do stop your baby from falling into a deeper sleep, which is good, in that it is speculated to be why they lower the SIDs risk, but bad in that your baby is more likely to wake (and then notice he hasn't got his dummy). If you decide to respond to him, then it will much less exhausting for you if you keep him right beside your bed where you can lean over and put a hand on him or pop in his dummy at his first whimper, without really waking up, if you decide to go the route of crying based training then obviously separate rooms would be better. BTW if/when you are trying to teach self-soothing it should be done unswaddled, a swaddled baby can't do anything to soothe themselves. Swaddling is very effective though, in the meantime when baby is too young to self-soothe anyway
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Latest post on 13 August 2011 - 11:11
thanks for the advice Kiwi...to answer your questions, he feeds around every 3 hours, basically on demand which naturally falls into this pattern. Sometimes goes almost 4 hours, sometimes only 2.5 and he feeds anywhere from 10-20 mins. He is gaining weight rapidly and is in a high percentile for weight with no drop off at all and at his last check the paed was extremely happy with him. He almost exclusively feeds at the breast (which he is doing well again now) except for a top up of 100ml expressed at his last feed on top of the breast to further tank up. Waking up 1-2 nights in the night would be absolutely fine I have no expectations of a 12 hour stint, but waking up every hour is just not working which is what is currently happening. I have the no-cry book and am also going to try the removal technique slowly over the next wee while as he certainly does like his dummy too. Not even thinking solids at the moment, even though it has been mentioned, certainly not until he is at least 5 months old and only if showing interest. His naps have vastly improved following the 20/5/20 method where we haven't left him to cry for more than 5 mins and that only happened twice, both times we modified and told him we were leaving and coming back rather than not talking. The last 2 days he has fallen asleep within 5 mins for naps and can do anything from 45 mins to 2 hours so this is working for us. It's just the nights that are the major problem. I'm hoping reswaddling will help, we shall see what happens tonight...
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Latest post on 13 August 2011 - 11:01
that would be fab, just drop me a line. Our 20/5/20 is hands on 20, leave the room for 5 (NOT pick up) and then hands on 20, so slightly different. It's definitely working through the day (now falling asleep within first 5 mins) but for the night wakings it's not really, and that's where she's advising to leave for 20...anyway look forward to chatting about it further! :)
 
 

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