at what age can babies self soothe?

I'd rather not name her, in part because I've only heard that she said these things via second hand info,(in fact the OP didn't specify it was who I have in mind).She no doubt believes in what she is teaching, also much like the infamous Gina Ford, she is not the only one profiting from bad advice, so I'd rather attack the advice than the person. She is however mentioned numerous times on this forum, generally whenever somebody posts looking for help with a troubled sleeper/unsettled baby so if anyone really wants to know they can figure it out. It does sound as though she has helped some people, I'm sure not all her advice is bad but some of it is appalling. HAK is right, there are proper channels, I would think if you paid for this advice, you'd have a good case for asking for your money back or at the very least, I'd stop short of calling it predatory, but it certainly is negligent/irresponsible. Steth if you are still having problems after the 4 month mark sleep training later on has been shown to acheive certain things, such as teaching some babies not to call for help settling in the night. I would wait until after 6 months before even thinking about trying the approach she has detailed and consider some alternatives to try first which have been scientifically shown to be statistically as effective and do not involve leaving your baby to cry. http://www.parentingscience.com/infant-sleep-problems.html http://www.parentingscience.com/infant-sleep-training.html I know I reference that website a lot but its by far the best collection of objectively researched parenting info I've found, covers sleep, to solids discipline and beyond.

@ 2Blossom & Spamm - you're very right and tbh, when you're in that situation, you are all the more vulnerable and so medical professionals should be all the more diligent and sensible. As first time mums, we are impressionable and do listen to what "experts" say without questioning them... and that's fine, as long as that "expert" is giving well informed, impartial information that is pertinent to your situation/ condition. Once you've walked away, it's not too late to complain or voice your opinion - it's never really too late. The sad thing is that many of us chalk it up to a bad experience, and settle for just never going back instead of doing our bit to make sure no one else has to go through it. We can talk about it to friends and family or on forums, but it doesn't actually solve the root of the problem - the bad service itself. This person may genuinely think that the advice she's giving is good. She may genuinely not be aware of recent studies, but part of her job - and a very important part at that - is to make sure she is up to speed. If it takes a gentle reminder in the form of a few complaints, she should be thankful for it and step up her game. You don't need to have a degree in child development to be able to question some advice that feels wrong - just as you don't need a degree in dentistry to question a dentist who tells you that you need all your teeth pulled out. You'd ask if it was necessary, if there was any other way around the problem... you'd ask to be shown why that was the recommendation, ask about the consequences, on-going issue and ultimately, if you still weren't convinced, you'd ask for a second or third opinion. I was once told that I needed to cut out DD's night feeds with the cry-it-out method and the "health professional" added that it didn't matter if she was physically sick, because that was "quite normal"... sorry love, but no, it's not "quite normal" for anyone to be so distraught they are physically sick. I asked a far more trusted health pro and she shook her head and said it wasn't necessary, that I already had all the bases in place and it was just a matter of time... and a few months later DD was sleeping through the night with no intervention from me. Anyhow, I'm rambling. It just saddens me no end how some people prey on us mums (and mums-to-be) at our most vulnerable points.

HAK how did you miss that thread, ;) it was a long one! ;), memorable for the alleged "breastmilk is high is sugar and will give your baby diabetes....." comment among others, luckily we all have a mother instinct, if you think your baby needs you they most likely do. lol - I must have been on holiday! Seriously though, if this person is giving out that kind of wacky "advice", she really ought to be struck off. I would have actually walked out of that consultancy and refused to pay. Medical professionals have a duty to give impartial, informed advice that is soundly rooted in scientific research, not some loony theory based on whatever they may have cooked up. Is it not allowed to tell her name ? I wouldn't, because it's someone's reputation on the line and you can enter into all kinds of libel issues if you're not careful. Naming and shaming on the Intarwebz is generally frowned upon for good reason. Instead, if anyone has grievances, they should always go through the appropriate channels - direct, through teh company and/or through the regulatory body. As a first parent ( like 2 blossom said ) that is not always easy, I think.

I don't think she has misunderstood as I was also given that advise when DS was just shy of 8 weeks old. I did question this as I thought I hadn't heard right (DH was there with me) I couldn't do it and think it's far too young. I was thinking about this and since this "professional" seems to be doling out this "advice" to a few people, could I possibly ask that those of you who do receive it,[b'> really grill her on what foundation she bases it on. Ask her if she's aware of the studies that show it to be at best pointless and at worst traumatic for the baby. Ask her how she aligns it with the baby's development and how it fits in to this.[/b'> Basically, I was told a couple of months ago that the government only requests about 1/3 of the continued professional development (CPD) within the medical professions that other countries do and has only just made this decision. I fear, therefore, that there are many "professionals" out there who have not kept up with current studies, research and thinking. CPD is considered essential to any profession, and is taken so seriously (in the UK at least) that if you don't keep up with it, you can be struck off and banned from practising until you get back up to speed. It's a bit worrying to say the least. Looking back on it now we should have done this but when you're sleep deprived, first time parent, teary eyed, no idea what you're doing, read all the books on how to etc - well.......

HAK how did you miss that thread, ;) it was a long one! ;), memorable for the alleged "breastmilk is high is sugar and will give your baby diabetes....." comment among others, luckily we all have a mother instinct, if you think your baby needs you they most likely do. lol - I must have been on holiday! Seriously though, if this person is giving out that kind of wacky "advice", she really ought to be struck off. I would have actually walked out of that consultancy and refused to pay. Medical professionals have a duty to give impartial, informed advice that is soundly rooted in scientific research, not some loony theory based on whatever they may have cooked up. Is it not allowed to tell her name ? I wouldn't, because it's someone's reputation on the line and you can enter into all kinds of libel issues if you're not careful. Naming and shaming on the Intarwebz is generally frowned upon for good reason. Instead, if anyone has grievances, they should always go through the appropriate channels - direct, through teh company and/or through the regulatory body.

HAK how did you miss that thread, ;) it was a long one! ;), memorable for the alleged "breastmilk is high is sugar and will give your baby diabetes....." comment among others, luckily we all have a mother instinct, if you think your baby needs you they most likely do. lol - I must have been on holiday! Seriously though, if this person is giving out that kind of wacky "advice", she really ought to be struck off. I would have actually walked out of that consultancy and refused to pay. Medical professionals have a duty to give impartial, informed advice that is soundly rooted in scientific research, not some loony theory based on whatever they may have cooked up. Is it not allowed to tell her name ?

HAK how did you miss that thread, ;) it was a long one! ;), memorable for the alleged "breastmilk is high is sugar and will give your baby diabetes....." comment among others, luckily we all have a mother instinct, if you think your baby needs you they most likely do. lol - I must have been on holiday! Seriously though, if this person is giving out that kind of wacky "advice", she really ought to be struck off. I would have actually walked out of that consultancy and refused to pay. Medical professionals have a duty to give impartial, informed advice that is soundly rooted in scientific research, not some loony theory based on whatever they may have cooked up.

Definitely agree that 6 weeks is way too young (to leave for 20 minutes or 5 minutes). However with my youngest she seemed to need to cry for a bit before she could fall asleep - kind of like her baby version of unwinding stress-relief. If she was held, rocked, etc to soother her and stop the crying she would just get more and more tired and ultimately just cry more and for longer. So sometimes she would cry for a few minutes while I stayed by her and did the 'shush/pat' routine and then she'd fall asleep. Doing it this way also meant that she seemed to sleep better for longer (falling asleep without being held in her cot/bassinet). So I think that letting her cry for a bit while I kept contact with her/soothed her with voice and hand contact has definitely help her self-soothe now. But it took me a while to understand that just 'cos she was crying when she was trying to sleep didn't necessarily mean she wanted to be held/fed/rocked/'quietened' etc...

ha! My 27months old cant self soothe yet!!

HAK how did you miss that thread, ;) it was a long one! ;), memorable for the alleged "breastmilk is high is sugar and will give your baby diabetes....." comment among others, luckily we all have a mother instinct, if you think your baby needs you they most likely do.

It is rather unprofessional to give this sort of advice as an "expert", I wonder if "she who will not be mentioned" reads this forum, I would be interested in why she is giving this and a few other dreadful pieces of mis-information regarding breastmilk/breastfeeding to new mothers, it is one thing to share personal or anecdotal advice mother-to-mother, quite another to pass it off as evidence-based in a professional context where you are paid for your advice. As a sleep expert, she should be well aware of the facts/research, it isn't exactly groundbreaking or hard to find. it seems I'm the only one to not actually know her name! lol! I don't need/want to know it either, but as always, would urge everyone to question, question and question again. If it were free advice, then you'd take it with a pinch of salt, but personally, I wouldn't be happy paying for the privilege of "advice" that is contrary to current thinking and could ultimately be detrimental.

It is rather unprofessional to give this sort of advice as an "expert", I wonder if "she who will not be mentioned" reads this forum, I would be interested in why she is giving this and a few other dreadful pieces of mis-information regarding breastmilk/breastfeeding to new mothers, it is one thing to share personal or anecdotal advice mother-to-mother, quite another to pass it off as evidence-based in a professional context where you are paid for your advice. As a sleep expert, she should be well aware of the facts/research, it isn't exactly groundbreaking or hard to find.

I don't think she has misunderstood as I was also given that advise when DS was just shy of 8 weeks old. I did question this as I thought I hadn't heard right (DH was there with me) I couldn't do it and think it's far too young. I was thinking about this and since this "professional" seems to be doling out this "advice" to a few people, could I possibly ask that those of you who do receive it, really grill her on what foundation she bases it on. Ask her if she's aware of the studies that show it to be at best pointless and at worst traumatic for the baby. Ask her how she aligns it with the baby's development and how it fits in to this. Basically, I was told a couple of months ago that the government only requests about 1/3 of the continued professional development (CPD) within the medical professions that other countries do and has only just made this decision. I fear, therefore, that there are many "professionals" out there who have not kept up with current studies, research and thinking. CPD is considered essential to any profession, and is taken so seriously (in the UK at least) that if you don't keep up with it, you can be struck off and banned from practising until you get back up to speed. It's a bit worrying to say the least.

that's crazy and way too young...I don't think I could do that now and DS is 13 weeks old LOL!

OMG 2Blossom, yeah far too young :(

shelly...yes we do know who that is, but my understanding is 20 mins of being with baby, only leaving them for 5 mins and then going back in for another 20 mins, not the opposite way which seems awful, especially for a 6 week old!! Yeah, the OP said though her advice is the other way around - so leaving the bub for 20mins to cry and so on. I think the OP must have misunderstood this advice (if its from who we think) as I don't believe she would offer that advice for a 6 week old. I agree with other posters, 6 weeks is far too young for sleep training. And this is coming from me who is and has been super strict about DD's routine since day 1. I don't think she has misunderstood as I was also given that advise when DS was just shy of 8 weeks old. I did question this as I thought I hadn't heard right (DH was there with me) I couldn't do it and think it's far too young.

shelly...yes we do know who that is, but my understanding is 20 mins of being with baby, only leaving them for 5 mins and then going back in for another 20 mins, not the opposite way which seems awful, especially for a 6 week old!! Yeah, the OP said though her advice is the other way around - so leaving the bub for 20mins to cry and so on. I think the OP must have misunderstood this advice (if its from who we think) as I don't believe she would offer that advice for a 6 week old. I agree with other posters, 6 weeks is far too young for sleep training. And this is coming from me who is and has been super strict about DD's routine since day 1.

shelly...yes we do know who that is, but my understanding is 20 mins of being with baby, only leaving them for 5 mins and then going back in for another 20 mins, not the opposite way which seems awful, especially for a 6 week old!! Slightly less awful, but I still think any sleep 'training' requiring the parents to abandon a six week old for even two minutes is very bad advice. I understand gentle sleep training when it's [u'>really[/u'> needed, but 6 weeks is just far, far too young.

shelly...yes we do know who that is, but my understanding is 20 mins of being with baby, only leaving them for 5 mins and then going back in for another 20 mins, not the opposite way which seems awful, especially for a 6 week old!!

I agree with the other posters - my DD is 6 weeks and I certainly couldn't leave her crying for 20 mins!! <em>edited by waterbaby on 09/08/2011</em>

I know who proposes that 20-5-20 method and I just cannot believe she would advise this for a 6 week old bubba. WAY TOO YOUNG!!! PLEASE steth, do not do this for your 6 week old!

gosh - who on earth is proposing to leave your 6 week old to cry (or "get over it") should be locked in solitary confinement for a day and see how they "get over it". 2 minutes, maybe, but really, at 6 weeks, bubs doesn't even know that s/he's not part of you, let alone has grasped the concept of time and object permanence (8 months is approximately when that happens). Basically, think of it this way. All bubs knows is that it needs you to live. Crying is its only means of expressing itself - it can't move, can't talk, can't do anything by itself, so if you don't help it, it knows it will die - that's why at this age, it's not "manipulation" as we understand the adult form of "manipulation" to a devious end, but the instinct of survival. You can apply this to any of its basic needs - "if I'm hungry but no-one feeds me, I will die.", "If I'm abandoned, I will die". When you leave your baby (until they start understanding object permanence), they actually have no idea that the most important person in their life will ever come back. Would that not make you cry rather loudly too? So, to move it back to slightly less scary scenarios and more helpful advice, start putting in place a bedtime routine. In these first months, you're building (gradually) a solid base for good habits - sleep, attitude, social interaction, nutrition. Nothing comes instantly (apart from for the lucky few) and it's generally a process - a learning process for both of you. My family's bedtime routine is relatively flexible, but will always have milk, book, brushing teeth (obviously not for a 6 week old!) and then popping down in bed/ cot. If you need to stay by them to soothe them, do so - that's what they need at that point in time, and dare I say it, what us mums are there for. <em>edited by Hello.Again.Kitty on 09/08/2011</em>

steth...are you worried that he's more unsettled than 'usual'. It's worth keeping in mind that almost all babies go through a growth spurt at around 6 weeks and during this time they will want to feed more often and will be slightly (or very!) unsettled. If it is a growth spurt causing your concern, it normally passes quickly and he'll be back to his usual self. I agree completely with kiwispiers...6 weeks is WAY too young for any kind of sleep training beyond your normal routine. Watch him carefully for signs of tiredness (within an hour or so of waking at his age) and start your soothing routine before he gets overtired. That will make it much easier to get him off to sleep. Same routine every time so he knows what to expect and learns to associate it with relaxation and sleep. <em>edited by Green-ish on 10/08/2011</em>

what you can do though is work on developing consistent sleep associations, like swaddling, white noise, dark room etc. I can't remember exactly when these started working but I know by 10 weeks my baby would just close his eyes the second I took him into his room and swaddled him or gave him his dummy. A much gentler way to teach your baby what naptime is about.

You are right to feel hesitant, developmentally it is inappropriate (I have a background in developmental psychology), Ferber etc explicitly said that these type of sleep training techniques were not to be used before 6 months of age as babies have not yet matured in a way that they can learn to self soothe, other medical experts say 4 months, none of them say 6 weeks. At 6 weeks he can barely control his arms and legs, how exactly is he supposed to soothe himself? (especially if swaddled) basically he will just cry until he is mentally and physically exhausted, at which point he will sleep, that is not self-soothing. Crying tend to peak at 6 weeks, whether you respond to your babies cries your baby or if you ignore them, either way in a few weeks he will be more settled, personally I'd rather not put him through that in the meantime. If you want the science on it... http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC1201415/ http://www.parentingscience.com/Ferber-method.html