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Advice/info from wives of nationals who gave up their passports

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2262

Posts

EW EXPERT

Latest post on 28 December 2011 - 20:20

I have yet to hear of any Consulate or Embassy being sent the passports from the UAE Govt. You misread :)...I said the form, not the passports :). That is what the OP said, I am just repeating :)

Al Quwatain51756

535

Posts

EW GURU

Latest post on 28 December 2011 - 20:14

AmyAus82, I think that you should only be expected to sign a paper translated into a language that you understand. When you are in 'the book', will you be able to travel without your husband but with children (if you have any)? I disagree, she should sign an Arabic document, it is the language of the country. Remember, the document means nothing to the Aus, UK and USA govt. Yes you can travel alone with the children.

199

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EW NEWBIE

Latest post on 28 December 2011 - 20:08

AmyAus82, I think that you should only be expected to sign a paper translated into a language that you understand. When you are in 'the book', will you be able to travel without your husband but with children (if you have any)?

504

Posts

EW GURU

Latest post on 28 December 2011 - 20:03

from what I have seen in terms of when they need to be used, they are more like a passport, the 'head of the family' (ahem) keeps the book but it is an official document. However as I don't actually have one I am quite prepared to be corrected!

spongemonkey980

4329

Posts

EW MASTER

Latest post on 28 December 2011 - 19:47

This is interesting - can someone explain simply to me about " the book" and the " back and front" of it? TIA The Nationality book is also known as the family book. Everyone gets a page, the first page is for the head of the family, then there are pages set aside for wives, then pages for children. You can only get your own page if you are a UAE National. Once married to a national your name goes into the back page, as a temporary placing, until you are eligible for citizenship, then you are moved to a wives page. There are different times for this, depending on many factors. I have heard recently that you need to be in the back of the book for 5 years before you can apply for citizenship. and this is a centrally held Government book? Thanks.

Al Quwatain51756

535

Posts

EW GURU

Latest post on 28 December 2011 - 19:37

I have yet to hear of any Consulate or Embassy being sent the passports from the UAE Govt.

2262

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EW EXPERT

Latest post on 28 December 2011 - 19:35

I have no idea not being Australian myself :)...but, in all cases, I personally would strongly suggest that the person with the uestions trot down to the embassy and get the direct answers to questions from the people who supposedly actually know the law ;). From what I read on the site, it will be granted if they have another citizenship and UAE is not an unstable country Idont believe. Also, the UAE will send the form to the embassy someone said so the proof will be there. But, I am no expert. :)

Al Quwatain51756

535

Posts

EW GURU

Latest post on 28 December 2011 - 19:29

being a curious person, I went to the actual website of of Australia and you have to formally renounce your citizenship by making application. You must have proof that you will be a citizen of another country before they will accept your application as they are part of the United Nations against Statelessness. Once renounced you do not have any privleges of an australian citizen. You can apply to resume your citizenship once you prove you no longer will be a resident of another country and you have to be approved by the Aus Government. This is the website. btw, taking up dual nationality is a different thing but if the country you are going to be a new citizen of requires you to renounce your citizen ship, they will require you to fill out the application revoking your right as a citizen of your birth country. You will not have the privleges of your birth country as you will not longer be a citzen. I didnt write it, only read the official site :) http://www.citizenship.gov.au/current/give_up/ This is very interesting. My sister works for Oz immi, and she says that it is very hard to renounce citizenship, as they rarely accept it. Especially if they feel that the country you are changing citizenship to is not 'stable'.

Al Quwatain51756

535

Posts

EW GURU

Latest post on 28 December 2011 - 19:26

This is interesting - can someone explain simply to me about " the book" and the " back and front" of it? TIA The Nationality book is also known as the family book. Everyone gets a page, the first page is for the head of the family, then there are pages set aside for wives, then pages for children. You can only get your own page if you are a UAE National. Once married to a national your name goes into the back page, as a temporary placing, until you are eligible for citizenship, then you are moved to a wives page. There are different times for this, depending on many factors. I have heard recently that you need to be in the back of the book for 5 years before you can apply for citizenship.

spongemonkey980

4329

Posts

EW MASTER

Latest post on 28 December 2011 - 19:17

This is interesting - can someone explain simply to me about " the book" and the " back and front" of it? TIA

2262

Posts

EW EXPERT

Latest post on 28 December 2011 - 19:13

being a curious person, I went to the actual website of of Australia and you have to formally renounce your citizenship by making application. You must have proof that you will be a citizen of another country before they will accept your application as they are part of the United Nations against Statelessness. Once renounced you do not have any privleges of an australian citizen. You can apply to resume your citizenship once you prove you no longer will be a resident of another country and you have to be approved by the Aus Government. This is the website. btw, taking up dual nationality is a different thing but if the country you are going to be a new citizen of requires you to renounce your citizen ship, they will require you to fill out the application revoking your right as a citizen of your birth country. You will not have the privleges of your birth country as you will not longer be a citzen. I didnt write it, only read the official site :) http://www.citizenship.gov.au/current/give_up/

punchbiffpow51677

178

Posts

EW NEWBIE

Latest post on 28 December 2011 - 16:21

Not to tangent, but I am a US citizen getting another country's passport at the moment. I was told directly by the US consulate that if the country asked me to renounce my nationality and I chose to I would have to be interviewed by the US consulate. If I said "they're making me" or something of the sort, they would refuse my renunciation of my citizenship. Doesn't affect the new country (ie I tried), and I keep my citizenship on the down low, so to speak. Perhaps it is the same in Australia. That said, it's really difficult to think of giving up part of who you are, especially if you've been in the UAE with both options for a while. I don't envy you, but wish you luck. Australian-born citizens will continue to be regarded as citizens by the Australian government, regardless of whether we say we renounce it or not. There is not a process for renouncing citizenship for us - we will always be regarded as a citizen. If we take up dual nationality - we will be regarded as an Autralian first and foremost. We can hand back our passports, and declare we don't view ourselves as citizens - but that changes nothing in the eyes of the Australian government - we will still have access to all the same rights as any other citizen if we one day change our mind. Thats based on a thorough checking out of things when I was arranging saudi citizenship for myself and DS.

63

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EW NEWBIE

Latest post on 28 December 2011 - 16:10

Not to tangent, but I am a US citizen getting another country's passport at the moment. I was told directly by the US consulate that if the country asked me to renounce my nationality and I chose to I would have to be interviewed by the US consulate. If I said "they're making me" or something of the sort, they would refuse my renunciation of my citizenship. Doesn't affect the new country (ie I tried), and I keep my citizenship on the down low, so to speak. Perhaps it is the same in Australia. That said, it's really difficult to think of giving up part of who you are, especially if you've been in the UAE with both options for a while. I don't envy you, but wish you luck.

1337

Posts

EW OLDHAND

Latest post on 28 December 2011 - 15:25

Anyone giving up a British Passport, and its not the same as renouncing your nationality, only has to get a 'certificate of entitlement' issued by the British Embassy. Its then placed in the back of your 'new country passport' and no visa is required for entry into the UK. You cannot however have a cerificate of entitlement as well as a second british passport - although this was possible until a couple of years ago. All of my children use the certificate as I will when I get my nationality very soon. You do have to apply for visas to Schengen countries but one officials from schengen countries see the cert of entitlement its just a formality you have to go through and its made easy. This explains it. http://www.ukba.homeoffice.gov.uk/britishcitizenship/right-of-abode/certificate-entitlement/ edited by DesertRose1958 on 28/12/2011 <em>edited by DesertRose1958 on 28/12/2011</em>

Al Quwatain51756

535

Posts

EW GURU

Latest post on 28 December 2011 - 15:12

Yes, Birchy. I understand about the childrens nationality, but they still do prefer to put the wifes name in the back when they enter children, so I assumed that AusAmy is in the back. I believe the new rule is now 5 years in the back before nationality is granted. About travelling with 2 passports, it is not a good thing to do, but is possible, if you are careful. The British Embassy will definately not issue visas to UAE passport holders if they suspect they are holding a British passport. You are right, this is a new rule. Even though foreign embassies state that they will not assist in times of need, they have proven that they will on a special occasions, but one should not expect it of them.

308

Posts

EW EXPLORER

Latest post on 28 December 2011 - 14:55

The children can be in the family book without the mother being there, they obtain nationality from their father so it is automatic, when the wife moves from the back to the front this is when she receives the nationality, as I said in my previous post if only now you are being entered you will go into the back until the waiting period is over and this can be anything from 3- years years. As for the visa they know that you have a british passport as it is all linked I asked this specificly, I am talking from a UK standpoint here and it may well be different for other nationalities. Travellign with 2 passports is risky and the immigration in the UAE do check for valid visas, if they find you with another passport its a huge problem and could result in your nationality being revoked and all sorts of other issues. Sit back stay cool and dont worry about it until you get the green light to go ahead and that will be after so many security check, producing documents etc.

Al Quwatain51756

535

Posts

EW GURU

Latest post on 28 December 2011 - 14:50

Due to new regulations some Embassies will not issue 'right of abode' or visas to UAE passport holders if they hold dual nationality. If you changed your name in your foreign passport when you got married, your UAE passport will be issued in your maiden name, so you could apply for a visa and your original country would not be aware that you still carry their passport. OR when you travel you will show one passport at check in and another at immigration. It all gets a bit hairy since you need to show UAE immigration only your UAE passport. I am not sure how soon you will be issued the passport after going into the nationality book, but I thought that your kids could not be entered unless you are in the book somewhere (usually back page for a few years).

308

Posts

EW EXPLORER

Latest post on 28 December 2011 - 14:44

i handed my British passport when I received the UAE National one however, if you are only now going into the family book unless your husband has BIG wasta it will take time and by that I mean anywhere from 3-7 years depending on what Emirate you are in and how many children and his work. When I handed in my passport to the immigration the British Embassy told me that I wwould always be able to apply for another passport however I would not be eligible for a visa for the UK in my UAE passport as I was holding a British Passport, this is new regulations that came into effect about 2 years ago. I would not worry about it now as the process is a long drawn out one that takes time and the rules in your country and or here may change.

punchbiffpow51677

178

Posts

EW NEWBIE

Latest post on 28 December 2011 - 14:38

Actually that's not what you said... Reread your post. In relation to the UAE - the Oz gov (or any for that matter) cannot help you as you are not considered a citizen of that country by the UAE gov. (you stated that they can). I said that the Australian governement CAN and WILL try to help you, as an Australian citizen - but this will be limited by the UAE's law treating you as a UAE national. I suggest you re-read the post, and the article, as neither says there is no help whatsover, and neither are about the UAE - they are broad cautions about the world in general that your rights MAY be limitied, depending on the country you are in, what their laws are. The effort that the Australian government will try to help you will be NO LESS than any ther Australian citizen. Regarding what the host country will allow - is completely at their discretion - it varies entirely depending on which country you are in, and which situation it is. The article does NOT say Australia cannot help you at all whatsover, which is what you are saying and which is utterly incorrect. If you have any experience at all with any of this - you would know that very rarely is anything black and white. ESPECIALLY in the middle east, and especially UAE. The outcome of any problem can be completely different dependent upon which person who deals with it. And UAE as a whole are mostly very adaptive. But as the UAE does not recognise dual citizenship - they will not allow any help from outside - hence the Australian Gov may try and help - they CANNOT help. As it says in the article "A country may not permit Australian consular assistance to be given to Australian citizens who, according to its laws, it considers and treats as its own nationals." Izzy - it says "A country" "may not" it does not say UAE "will not". May means "might". They are making a broad statement about EVERY country in the world - saying if you hold dual nationality SOME countries MIGHT not allow Australia to help you. You have taken this - and said this is to be interpreted as "Australian nationals in UAE can receive no consular assistance whatsover if they hold a UAE passport". It says nothing of the sort, it is a broad cautionary statement. It also says some countries may not recognize an Australian marriage. So using your interpretation of "may not" and "some countries" - this means Australian marriages are not recognized anywhere ever? Pfft. Your article also proves you wrong about needing a visa. You stated "Even if you have both passports you will need to apply for a visa to go to Australia as this will need to be in UAE passport..". When in fact, as per your article, Australia will not ever issue a visa to Australian citizens

punchbiffpow51677

178

Posts

EW NEWBIE

Latest post on 28 December 2011 - 14:33

Actually that's not what you said... Reread your post. In relation to the UAE - the Oz gov (or any for that matter) cannot help you as you are not considered a citizen of that country by the UAE gov. (you stated that they can). I said that the Australian governement CAN and WILL try to help you, as an Australian citizen - but this will be limited by the UAE's law treating you as a UAE national. I suggest you re-read the post, and the article, as neither says there is no help whatsover, and neither are about the UAE - they are broad cautions about the world in general that your rights MAY be limitied, depending on the country you are in, what their laws are. The effort that the Australian government will try to help you will be NO LESS than any ther Australian citizen. Regarding what the host country will allow - is completely at their discretion - it varies entirely depending on which country you are in, and which situation it is. The article does NOT say Australia cannot help you at all whatsover, which is what you are saying and which is utterly incorrect. If you have any experience at all with any of this - you would know that very rarely is anything black and white. ESPECIALLY in the middle east, and especially UAE. The outcome of any problem can be completely different dependent upon which person who deals with it. And UAE as a whole are mostly very adaptive. But as the UAE does not recognise dual citizenship - they will not allow any help from outside - hence the Australian Gov may try and help - they CANNOT help. As it says in the article "A country may not permit Australian consular assistance to be given to Australian citizens who, according to its laws, it considers and treats as its own nationals." Izzy - it says "A country" "may not" it does not say UAE "will not". May means "might". They are making a broad statement about EVERY country in the world - saying if you hold dual nationality SOME countries MIGHT not allow Australia to help you. You have taken this - and said this is to be interpreted as "Australian nationals in UAE can receive no consular assistance whatsover if they hold a UAE passport". It says nothing of the sort, it is a broad cautionary statement. It also says some countries may not recognize an Australian marriage. So using your interpretation of "may not" and "some countries" - this means Australian marriages are not recognized anywhere ever? Pfft.

433

Posts

EW EXPLORER

Latest post on 28 December 2011 - 14:22

Actually that's not what you said... Reread your post. In relation to the UAE - the Oz gov (or any for that matter) cannot help you as you are not considered a citizen of that country by the UAE gov. (you stated that they can). I said that the Australian governement CAN and WILL try to help you, as an Australian citizen - but this will be limited by the UAE's law treating you as a UAE national. I suggest you re-read the post, and the article, as neither says there is no help whatsover, and neither are about the UAE - they are broad cautions about the world in general that your rights MAY be limitied, depending on the country you are in, what their laws are. The effort that the Australian government will try to help you will be NO LESS than any ther Australian citizen. Regarding what the host country will allow - is completely at their discretion - it varies entirely depending on which country you are in, and which situation it is. The article does NOT say Australia cannot help you at all whatsover, which is what you are saying and which is utterly incorrect. If you have any experience at all with any of this - you would know that very rarely is anything black and white. ESPECIALLY in the middle east, and especially UAE. The outcome of any problem can be completely different dependent upon which person who deals with it. And UAE as a whole are mostly very adaptive. But as the UAE does not recognise dual citizenship - they will not allow any help from outside - hence the Australian Gov may try and help - they CANNOT help. As it says in the article "A country may not permit Australian consular assistance to be given to Australian citizens who, according to its laws, it considers and treats as its own nationals."

punchbiffpow51677

178

Posts

EW NEWBIE

Latest post on 28 December 2011 - 14:17

Actually that's not what you said... Reread your post. In relation to the UAE - the Oz gov (or any for that matter) cannot help you as you are not considered a citizen of that country by the UAE gov. (you stated that they can). I suggest you re-read the post. I said that the Australian governement CAN and WILL try to help you, as an Australian citizen - but this will be limited by the UAE's law treating you as a UAE national. I also suggest you re-read the article you posted, as NOWHERE does it say there is no help whatsoever for dual-nationals.It has braod cautionary statements about the world in general (not the UAE specifically) that your rights MAY be limitied, depending on the country you are in and what their laws are. Nothing there comes close to being read as "Australia cannot help you whatsover if you hold a passport of another country". The effort that the Australian government will try to help you will be NO LESS than any ther Australian citizen. Regarding what the host country will allow - is completely at their discretion - and obviously varies entirely depending on which country you are in, which embassy is trying to help you, and what the individual situation is.Nothing is ever black and white. ESPECIALLY in the middle east, and especially UAE. Anyone with any experience here knows that the outcome of any problem can be completely different dependent upon which person who deals with it. And UAE as a whole are mostly very adaptive. The middle east are also increasingly cautious with how they handle any case with a westerner - regardless of whether they hold a national passport. <em>edited by punchbiffpow on 28/12/2011</em>

433

Posts

EW EXPLORER

Latest post on 28 December 2011 - 14:00

Actually that's not what you said... Reread your post. In relation to the UAE - the Oz gov (or any for that matter) cannot help you as you are not considered a citizen of that country by the UAE gov. (you stated that they can).

punchbiffpow51677

178

Posts

EW NEWBIE

Latest post on 28 December 2011 - 13:56

Punchpiffbow - i hate to say this but you are wrong - The Consular Services Charter sets out the standard of services all Australians can expect to receive from consular staff, including what they can and cannot do. Under international law, countries are not obliged to recognise dual nationality: A country may not permit Australian consular assistance to be given to Australian citizens who, according to its laws, it considers and treats as its own nationals. A person might not be regarded as being an Australian if that person is not travelling on their Australian passport, which may also limit the consular assistance available. taken from http://www.smartraveller.gov.au/tips/dual-nationals.html Izzy - this is the second time in a week you have claimed that I am wrong about something, then gone ahead to make the exact point that i was apparently wrong about. As I said - the Australian government will ALWAYS see you as a citizen, and will ALWAYS try to help as much as they would another citizen. But if you are considered a national by another conuntry - the law will be applied differently/more strictly and their will be complications/limits to the assitance Australia can provide. You have then provided a link giving that exact same information - and saying that I am wrong at the same time? Most of your contributions on this forum seem to be coming from an angle of criticism, and in two cases so far in my one week on the forum you've not even READ the point that I make before trying to shoot me down in flames, then going to repeat the same point that I originally made.

433

Posts

EW EXPLORER

Latest post on 28 December 2011 - 13:37

Punchpiffbow - i hate to say this but you are wrong - The Consular Services Charter sets out the standard of services all Australians can expect to receive from consular staff, including what they can and cannot do. Under international law, countries are not obliged to recognise dual nationality: A country may not permit Australian consular assistance to be given to Australian citizens who, according to its laws, it considers and treats as its own nationals. A person might not be regarded as being an Australian if that person is not travelling on their Australian passport, which may also limit the consular assistance available. taken from http://www.smartraveller.gov.au/tips/dual-nationals.html

punchbiffpow51677

178

Posts

EW NEWBIE

Latest post on 28 December 2011 - 13:24

PBP, thank you for those words - they go very far with me at the moment. I didn't think it would bother me until I was face to face with that piece of paper and it dawned on me what I was potentially giving up. While I don't see myself going back to Australia, and do fell this to be my home, it scared me to think that if I ever want to visit my family I would need to apply for a visa, was I giving up my whole childhood and everything my great grandparents had worked for -0 the fears just began! Thank you again, greatly. Even if you have both passports you will need to apply for a visa to go to Australia as this will need to be in UAE passport.. A UK/Saudi friend of mine has to do this everytime she goes back to the UK - although she never enters UK on her Saudi Passport. It also means that if you get into ANY form of trouble here - you will not be classed as an Ozzie and the Australian government will not be able to help you in any form what so ever.... edited by IzzyDubai on 28/12/2011 Its true - that in the law the UAE will not see you as an Ozzy citizen, and will thus apply the law to you as though you are a local. It is not accurate the Australian government cannot help you. You will still be a citizen in their eyes and they will still take the same actions to help as they would with any other citizen. The issue with obtaining help is not that Australia cannot help you - but that the law might in some circumstances be applied more strictly to you as a "local" rather than an "Expat", making processing in helping you more complicated.

433

Posts

EW EXPLORER

Latest post on 28 December 2011 - 13:23

I understand completely :) Even in a situation where you've already made up your mind that this is where you want to be and you can't envisage changing your mind - there is an endless amount of "what ifs" and it would be giving up a significant safety net to lose Australian citizenship. For example - what if this entire region was at war and we were unable to return back to Australia,having given up our citizenship. It's a perfectly sane concern for you to have, no matter how committed your decision is to remain here :) I think it's the same with Brits thou - even if we take another passport we can never renounce being a Brit - so i can always get the little red book back..... AA - in reality; you can get the Ozzie passport back - you just have to keep it hidden; in the same way that your children have dual nationality (i hope)

punchbiffpow51677

178

Posts

EW NEWBIE

Latest post on 28 December 2011 - 13:20

I understand completely :) Even in a situation where you've already made up your mind that this is where you want to be and you can't envisage changing your mind - there is an endless amount of "what ifs" and it would be giving up a significant safety net to lose Australian citizenship. For example - what if this entire region was at war and we were unable to return back to Australia,having given up our citizenship. It's a perfectly sane concern for you to have, no matter how committed your decision is to remain here :)

433

Posts

EW EXPLORER

Latest post on 28 December 2011 - 13:18

PBP, thank you for those words - they go very far with me at the moment. I didn't think it would bother me until I was face to face with that piece of paper and it dawned on me what I was potentially giving up. While I don't see myself going back to Australia, and do fell this to be my home, it scared me to think that if I ever want to visit my family I would need to apply for a visa, was I giving up my whole childhood and everything my great grandparents had worked for -0 the fears just began! Thank you again, greatly. Even if you have both passports you will need to apply for a visa to go to Australia as this will need to be in UAE passport.. A UK/Saudi friend of mine has to do this everytime she goes back to the UK - although she never enters UK on her Saudi Passport. It also means that if you get into ANY form of trouble here - you will not be classed as an Ozzie and the Australian government will not be able to help you in any form what so ever.... <em>edited by IzzyDubai on 28/12/2011</em>

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EW NEWBIE

Latest post on 28 December 2011 - 13:14

Well...if you give up your passport...you will need a visa to visit, won't you ? :-)

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