Eat, sleep, drink schedule for a 7 month old

lemondrops always talks sense :)

I personally don't understand why this has turned to a Cecile bashing thread, but just to put my two fils in, I owe Cecile a huge debt. If it wasn't for Cecile I wouldn't have breastfed DD1 for two years or managed to exclusively pump BM for my DD2 for the seven months and still going strong. I also wouldn't have stopped for a moment to look after myself or consulted with a doctor for my PND, which she encouraged me to do. I have also never found Cecile to apply a one size fits all philosophy. I can tell you for my DD2 who was born premature, she advised me on feeding her every three hours and waking her up for feeds until she was well above 5 kg. With DD1, she advised me to feed on demand and do away with scheduled feedings - in fact I continued to demand feed DD1 day and night until she was a little over two years old. Two totally different approaches for two very different babies. I can also tell you from personal experience Cecile genuinely cares about the mothers and babies under her charge and goes well beyond call of duty to help. Not everyone may agree with her approach, I certainly don't when it comes to CIO for example, but her heart is genuinely in the right place, and she has provided invaluable advice and support to numerous mothers over the years. And to add to the argument that babies/newborns have to nurse through the night, I'm going to quote something from the Dr. Jack Newman website (although I hope this isn't taken out of context): [i'>"There is no evidence that a healthy full term newborn must feed every three hours (or two hours, or whatever) during the first few days. There is no evidence that they will develop low blood sugars if they don’t feed every three hours (the whole issue of low blood sugars has become a mass hysteria in many postpartum areas which, like all hysterias, results from a grain of truth, perhaps, but actually causes more problems than it prevents"[/i'> <em>edited by lemondrops on 20/06/2011</em>

Sandfly replied : And the 'rule' was given to a specific mother in respect of a specific baby; it was almost certainly not intended to be distributed as gospel to a wide group of mothers with babies with differing needs. And what about this one Sandfly ? Spamm wrote : This midwife has very strange theory... http://gulfnews.com/life-style/parenting/parenting-solutions-feeding-thumb-sucking-1.811746 I would also be interested to know from where she took the rule ''one hour of sleep per week of age'' This rule wasnt given to a specific mother of a specific baby ! Sandfly replied : and there are very few 4kg babies who need to feed more often than every couple of hours False ! Did you hear about macrosomia ? edited by salome on 20/06/2011 Yes. How many macrosomic babies need to feed more often than every couple of hours? Yes she should probably have given a cut off for her 'one hour of sleep per week' business, it obviously doesn't apply to 16 week olds (or 5 year olds..... or 40 year olds come to that). And perhaps she should also have said 'if your child isn't premature, underweight, FTT, etc' but you have to assume a certain level of common sense, no? But with regard to her actual advice in that article, it is not so far off, say, Gina Ford. Now Gina isn't for me, but has helped lots of parents - as has Cecile, though obviously not on the same level of magnitude. It is horses for courses, and whatever the various proponents of various theories say, there is actually very little reliable evidence on exactly what is 'best' for a normal, healthy, child in this kind of context, as it is just about impossible to exclude other factors (or to know what to measure, come to that).

Hey Ladies, why don't you visit the medicentre clinic in Al Barsha. That's where I take my daughter to. They held Baby clinic classes every Monday from 9-11am. It is a free and you can ask Patricia (the registered general nurse) and inquire questions regarding feeding,teething,sleeping ,safety and traveeling etc and of course ,anything else we wish to disscuss. You may as well call them on 04-3233715 and book your place. Hope I have been some sort of help.

Sandfly replied : And the 'rule' was given to a specific mother in respect of a specific baby; it was almost certainly not intended to be distributed as gospel to a wide group of mothers with babies with differing needs. And what about this one Sandfly ? Spamm wrote : This midwife has very strange theory... http://gulfnews.com/life-style/parenting/parenting-solutions-feeding-thumb-sucking-1.811746 I would also be interested to know from where she took the rule ''one hour of sleep per week of age'' This rule wasnt given to a specific mother of a specific baby ! Sandfly replied : and there are very few 4kg babies who need to feed more often than every couple of hours False ! Did you hear about macrosomia ? <em>edited by salome on 20/06/2011</em>

Sandfly wrote : I found Cecile very supportive with regard to breast feeding. I am happy for you Sandfly but as Kiwispiers said: Your midwife is giving advice that goes against current medical recommendations, whether it is successful or not. And this information( the rule with a 4kgs baby overnight ...) is unacceptable and unsafe for some babies . where did I say she was my midwife? she wasn't. She was however very supportive with regard to breastfeeding. The amount of completely conflicting advice out there on the subject is incredible; and whichever recommendations you accept (IBCLC or whatever its name is? AAP? NHS? WHO?) , there are medical professionals out there saying otherwise - paediatricians, GPs, midwives, health visitors (in the UK) etc etc etc. Ultimately with breastfeeding, I think anything that helps is to be encouraged - and Cecile has helped a lot of people And the 'rule' was given to a specific mother in respect of a specific baby; it was almost certainly not intended to be distributed as gospel to a wide group of mothers with babies with differing needs. Incidentally I suspect that comments like 'leaving babies fasting for a couple of hours could lead to hypoglycaemia and cause brain damage' are more likely to cause stress and anxiety where it isn't required, which will not IMHO encourage breastfeeding.... far easier to be sure your baby is getting milk if you can see it - and there are very few 4kg babies who need to feed more often than every couple of hours. I don't think going around saying that (scaremongering) is particularly following 'current medical recommendations' either - as far as I am aware the one thing they do all agree on is that breastfeeding is the best alternative.....

Nutty replied : Perhaps book an appt and go see for yourself before passing judgement on her methods and philosophy. Thanks for your advice Nutty but I worked ( I am myself an healthcare professional )with her a couple of years ago and was very disapointed ...

My DD was fed on demand until she established a routine,however we did clusterfeed in the afternoons to give her enough calories to go through the night once she was ready. I learnt to read her feeding cues early on and did not shove a boob in her mouth every time she cried rather looked for the real cause of her upset. I was not for or against CIO but as it happened we didn't need to do it as DD went back to sleep of her own accord when she woke in the night and was settled( not given boob). Each child is an individual and as rightly said should be trated as so. BTW Cecile never gave us advice that didn't fit with our own beliefs and there is 1000+ expat mums who will vouch for her methods. Perhaps book an appt and go see for yourself before passing judgement on her methods and philosophy.

DC I think that last question is actually part of the article she quoted, not directed at you.

[ Those are our reasons for not using the cry it out method. What are yours? I'm sorry, but where did I say we'd used Cry-It-Out?

Sandfly wrote : I found Cecile very supportive with regard to breast feeding. I am happy for you Sandfly but as Kiwispiers said: Your midwife is giving advice that goes against current medical recommendations, whether it is successful or not. And this information( the rule with a 4kgs baby overnight ...) is unacceptable and unsafe for some babies .

I personally wouldn't use CIO on a young baby (actually still wouldn't use it on my 10 month old although it would be far more developmentally appropriate than on a newborn) but to be honest I don't think that babies left to cry at night are necessarily psychologically damaged, as implied below. Most studies are cited well out of context in this area. The Weissbluth method blog has an interesting counter argument to the Dr Sears critisism of CIO techniques for anyone actually interested in reviewing the research. I am going to bow out of this thread now, its getting a bit hot in here ;)

spamm I don't know if it's meant or if it is just because of the smug tone of the article you copied, but that struck me as quite a nasty post. I found Cecile very supportive with regard to breast feeding. Her way of dealing with sleep issues wasn't right for me, so I didn't use it (though I got to the stage with my second where if she hadn't suddenly decided she could actually sleep for more than 30 minutes at a time, I would have tried anything) but it's hardly unique to Cecile; there are plenty of (medical) proponents of the method and plenty of mothers who have found it worked well for them. There are lots of aspects of parenthood where people tend to polarise - are you a Gina Ford mum or an AP parent, is formula the work of the devil or a jolly good idea, etc. I read, and think, and experiment; sometimes I don't end up doing what I thought I would, sometimes I find something that makes sense to me but is really, really, really, difficult to do in practice, sometimes I read something that reflects the way I naturally do things - but I don't pretend for one minute that I have 'the answer'. I couldn't be a Gina mum, it isn't right for me, but I have friends who are/were, and it is right for them and their family. It just seems to me that life would be so much easier if parents didn't seem to feel the need to take a pop at each other so often......

At 7 months, my DS was waking anywhere up to 10 or 15 times a night. I was almost incapable of caring for him alone during the day, I was so sleep-deprived. He had a great diet of solids along with being BF and was top of the charts for his weight. We saw Cecile who advised that he didn't need feeding 10 to 15 times a night. He was waking because I'd taught him he needed me and a pair of boobs to go back to sleep. We did three days of sleep training according to Cecile's advice. He was down to one dream feed and one night feed after these three days, dropped the night feed himself a few days after that, and dropped the dream feed by himself at 10 months. During this time, he maintained his curve on the charts and was - and still is - thriving. Never once did he show any signs of malnutrition or starvation. Nor did he up his intake of solids or BM during the day once he wasn't being fed at night. I'm pretty sure I didn't once put him at risk in order for me to get a good night's sleep and now I'm not suffering horrendous PND as a result of sleep deprivation, I'm also pretty sure I'm doing a better job as a mother. I will be following Cecile's advice when #2 arrives in November, and I don't think I'll need to question the 'long-term effects of her sleep training' (all three days of it in our case). To the OP, DS was on three small meals a day at 7 months with four or five milk feeds on top of that. His dreamfeed was formula and I gradually switched all other feeds to formula over the space of a week or so. We started him on solids at around 17 or 18 weeks on the advice of his paediatrician, and he took to it straight away. I was really worried about stopping the night feedings, as obviously when he was on BM only I didn't know how much he was taking, but I knew he drained each breast at each feeding and was gaining weight brilliantly so he was clearly getting enough. It's hard to have confidence in what you're doing when you don't have meters to show consumption on your boobs! Good luck and I hope you find a routine that works for you soon. <em>edited by DubaiCat on 18/06/2011</em>

kiwispiers replied : salome I agree with you as you'll see in my post, but nutty was simply repeating what she was told. I agree with you . We shouldnt see health professionals take advantage of the naivety of mums . I agree too, cecile is taken as a guru by lot of expatwoman, who dont ever question the long term effect of her sleep training

kiwispiers replied : salome I agree with you as you'll see in my post, but nutty was simply repeating what she was told. I agree with you . We shouldnt see health professionals take advantage of the naivety of mums .

salome I agree with you as you'll see in my post, but nutty was simply repeating what she was told.

kiwispiers replied : Your midwife is giving advice that goes against current medical recommendations, whether it is successful or not, so I think it is fair enough for people to question it (but let's not shoot he messenger). Leaving babies fasting for a couple of hours could lead to hypoglycemia and cause brain damages depending on each case individually. Therefore, these instructions do not apply on all babies, each and everyone of them has its special case. It is unacceptable to put one's children at risk in order to get a good night sleep. This midwife is unprofessional, and I find it outraging that she targets sleep-deprived mothers by giving this type of incorrect information.

Nutty, it is certainly possible to for a baby to do so, my 10 week old also slept a 10 hour stretch each night entirely of his own volition without ever being left to cry, I think the point is at that age its not medically recommended (AAP, WHO) to ever ignore signs of hunger day or night, especially in a BF baby. Your midwife is giving advice that goes against current medical recommendations, whether it is successful or not, so I think it is fair enough for people to question it (but let's not shoot he messenger). As a complete aside (and not in criticism of you Nutty) here is an interesting article about the AAP's review of scheduled BFing. Personally my baby has never been "demanding" enough to demand feed so I have followed a loose schedule of sorts and also fed whenever he has demanded so I think the key is to be aware of what you particular baby needs. http://www.ezzo.info/Aney/aneyaap.htm The OP's baby is 7 months old and is feeding more frequently by night than by day, the short feeds do suggest it is potentially for soothing rather than hunger and I agree it is reasonable for her to attempt to modify this but she needs to make sure she doesn't compromise her supply or malnourish her baby at the same time, it's tricky and we all have to make decisions that work for us as a mother/family. <em>edited by kiwispiers on 18/06/2011</em>

Can you ask to your midwife where is this rule coming from ? Can she show us any medical serious study regarding this ? Thanks a lot ! My package is finished with my midwife so wont see her till No 2......But mentioned her name below if you would like to give herv a call and ask her. Anyway, what i said below worked for us, DD slept through from 10 weeks on BF with a dream feed at 11pm till about 6/7months when she started solids 3x day we dropped the dreamfeed and has continued to sleep through 5 teeth. Day sleeps we still struggle now and again with but overall have a contented baby and a very contented well rested mummy. Thats what counts!

This midwife has very strange theory... http://gulfnews.com/life-style/parenting/parenting-solutions-feeding-thumb-sucking-1.811746 I would also be interested to know from where she took the rule ''one hour of sleep per week of age''

nutty replied : My midwife told me about being physically able at 4kg rule.My DD slept through the night on BF alone from10 weeks and was 4kg at birth. When i asked about this i was told it can take that long to get into the swing of things and develop good sleep habits. My friend brought her DS home from hospital 2 months ago and he slept 7 hours straight from birth in the night and now does 12 hours with a dreamfeed at 10.30pm. Lots of my friends who all saw the same midwife are in the same position so sounds a bit more normal to my ears. Can you ask to your midwife where is this rule coming from ? Can she show us any medical serious study regarding this ? Thanks a lot !

oh and re: the poo ;) before solids we had one yoghurty poo a week (oh I remember those days fondly) post-solids we have 1-4 per day :( and they are playdough like) basically BM is almost fully absorbed so there is very little wastage whereas a lot of the solids come out pretty much as they went in, hence more bulk. So long as she is not uncomfortable they are fine. You don't really need to give anything else to drink beside BM and the odd sip of water but make sure she has as much BM as she wants. If you think she is getting constipated cut back on the starchy foods. HTH

I think what Nutty meant to say is you baby "might" not need a night feed and "could" be waking more out of habit ;). The physically possible thing, basically means that studies have shown that there are some babies who, IF they manage to eat enough by day, MAY not wake for a night feed and will still grow at a normal growth curve. So I wouldn't WAKE an older baby for a night feed, (if their weight gain was ok) but wouldn't let a young baby go 12 hours without feeding them even if they did want to sleep through. My baby was 4kg by a few weeks old and definitely needed night feeding more than once. Even FF babies often need to, formula is fully digested after 4 hours and has not been shown to have an effect on making a baby sleep through. I definitely did offer him the pacifier first when he was 7 months, if he was actually hungry he would refuse it in which case I fed him. I think yo have to use your mother instinct on that one, there are many babies, especially those who don't thumb suck or use a pacifier who do use a BF as a soothing mechanism rather than being hungry and it is reasonable to try and modify that behaviour if you want to and feel it is safe for your baby. That doesn't necessarily translate to, your baby isn't hungry/doesn't need to be fed in the night. You are breastfeeding, so you don't know how much milk your baby takes by day. I had a similar dilemma with my 7 month old, who, at 10 weeks, slept a 10 hour stretch and then woke for 1 night feed, but at 7 months was wanting to be fed 3 times a night. He was on 3 meals of solids by around 7 1/2 months (solids introduced at 6 1/2 months) and breastfed about 8-10 times between 6am and 6pm, they were/are very short feeds. It really depends how much your baby takes per feed, which isn't necessarily something you can control but at 7 months you shouldn't cut back milk feeds to encourage solids feeds, rather you should BF directly before a meal of solids and let solids be an extra. However for my baby, denying solids didn't make him drink more milk, he still preferred to BF at night. Anyway, I stuck it out until he was 9 months before I tried to cut back on his night feeding, because I felt he wasn't taking enough BM by day and wanted him to get the nutrition. If I had been more confident in his day feeding I might have cut back sooner. At 9 months I limited him to 2 night feeds, which were long and bigger than any daytime feeds he would take. At 10 months he has one night feed and he is definitely hungry when he has it. If he wakes before 3am I try to soothe him using other methods, and only feed him in extreme circumstances like last night when he was miserable from teething. I don't go 12 hours without food or drink, so I'm not surprised my baby can't but I do think that the problem is the waking, i.e they wake then realise they are a bit hungry or associate feeding with falling back to sleep, rather than they wake because they are hungry. I do think you have a problem with not having enough daytime sleep, I would work on having 2-3 solid naps I think when may baby was 7 months old it was something like wake between 6 and 7am BF on waking BF then nap 9am-10am(ish) BF then solids on awaking (6-8 ice cubes worth of quinoa porridge with stewed peaches and figs) BF then nap 12-1 BF then solids on awakening (6-8 cubes something like chicken/lamb/fish with vegies) BF then nap 3-4pm BF on awakening solids around 5pm (similar to lunch) BF then bed around 6:30pm 1-3 Night feeds between 10pm and 3am :( This schedule was largely dictated by him having short naps, at around 8 months he started napping longer and fighting the 3rd nap so I was able to switch to 2 naps one from 9-10:30 am and the second from 1-2:30 pm with a 6/6:30 bedtime. all the best, it is a hard road at times. <em>edited by kiwispiers on 17/06/2011</em>

I never said to refuse a baby food, i said that i was told once over 4 kg's then it is physically possible to for a baby to go throught the night.My child certainly never cried for hunger! We did however invest the time in teaching her good sleep habits which is one of the hardest things i have done. That said from 10weeks she slept through and has continued to do so throughout teething, rolling etc We done it under the supervision of professional advice with bi weekly progression meetings up until she slept through (with a dream feed). My point was that if this is what you want to achieve it can be done. I dont think there is anything wrong with wanting a baby to sleepthrough as soon as possible esp if returning to work or other children in the house. Each family will work out whats best for them.

I wouldn't recomment stopping BF at night. This is the time when the milk is at it's best for your little one.(it's fattier and is when your supply is ''generated'') I tried cutting out BF in the night (due to lack of sleep as lil one was feeding every hour) when my little one was around 5 week old (and gave formula instead) This decreased the amount of milk produced making Bf harder. I had a very hard time BF and switched to formula so to all you mums who do it for so long, well done to you all i wish i could have. Anyway my point (sorry to ramble) I would feed as much milk and just a little solid for now, as long as she is getting abit and learning how to eat i'm sure thats okay. all the best :}

Every baby is different. It doesn't matter whether they are FF or BF, some babies will sleep through the night from early on, others will take a while before this happens. DS is 5 months, EBF and still wakes twice a night for feeds. He did sleep through the night a few times when he was 3 months old but then started teething, rolling over, trying to crawl, 4 month sleep regression etc. All these developmental milestones can have an effect on how your baby sleeps at night as does good daytime sleeping. I agree with Pentel, I myself wouldn't refuse an over 4kg baby feeding at night. Sunsa, from what I've read, so long as you are offering BM first before solids and leaving a gap like you are doing before giving the solids so your LO isn't too full.

My midwife told me about being physically able at 4kg rule.My DD slept through the night on BF alone from10 weeks and was 4kg at birth. When i asked about this i was told it can take that long to get into the swing of things and develop good sleep habits. My friend brought her DS home from hospital 2 months ago and he slept 7 hours straight from birth in the night and now does 12 hours with a dreamfeed at 10.30pm. Lots of my friends who all saw the same midwife are in the same position so sounds a bit more normal to my ears.

moonbean - I'm sure your question is rhetorical but let me answer anyway... absolutely not! weight has nothing to do with a babys' need for night feeding, breastmilk is easier to digest than artificial milk so BF babies usually require to be fed more often than FF, plus the fact that tummies are tiny at this age (as a rule, as big as their fist) so can only take small amounts of milk and therefore need filling more frequently. I think it's the demands of modern living which leave us obsessed with the idea that babies must sleep straight through the night, your DS is tiny but you feed him in the night for as long as he needs.

I wouldn't feed during the night, there is no need for this after a baby reaches 4kg. Wow I have to admit my eyebrows raised when I read the above comment. My DS is just 5 weeks and weighs 5.3kg's, she still wakes up several times a night for feeds. Does this mean I refuse a 5 week old a feed due to her weight? *confused* <em>edited by moonbean on 17/06/2011</em>