For Two Kids

You know, Rumour, I think you have a point with the women's lib thing. Not that it hasn't brought about a massive improvement for women and their rights - of course it has - but that nowadays we're all expected to be able to do everything single-handedly and be everything to everybody; juggle kids and a career, be Supermum and a boardroom superstar, run a home while enjoying a glittering social life, maintain a wonderful figure while churning out babies, and so on. Anything less than this and we're led to feel like failures. And it also doesn't help that we have our older female relatives constantly reminding us how much harder it was for them! I know my brother was a terrible sleeper and Mum was up all hours with him but I had PND after DS was born, brought about by sleep deprivation. I guess some of us can cope and some can't. We're in the UK at the moment and of course DS has been a bit unsettled with the travelling and time difference, so his sleep - and therefore mine - has been disrupted. I must have been a bit grumpy one morning because my lovely sympathetic Mum told me it was always 'glass half empy' with me! Gee, thanks! TwoKids, I'm so pleased you found a solution and things are looking up :). Womens lib - in my mind whilst it did improve on many a thing for women, a very big part of it amounted to nothing more than women scoring an own goal.

Thank you for all your sentiments. I am a little embarrassed by all of the attention! Nomad, you sound like a wonderful MIL. My MIL does not speak English! I am not sure if that is a blessing in disguise:) I agree with you Custard Apple. Despite all the glitz and glam of parts of Dubai, it is still a developing country and industrial relations has a long way to go - maternity leave (even if it would be unpaid), part-time professional roles and flexible work hours (my DH has to work 9am - 6pm), would be a step in the right direction. If I was not with the kids for 12 hrs on my own every day, I would not be looking at options like summer camp for a bit of a break. Enough said. Have a lovely weekend with your families ladies!

Closing threads is the mods new way of saying enough has been said on this subject, probably because it's getting heated...before, they just used to delete the whole thing. Can be useful to leave it there for others to read but imo frustrating that they're not able to contribute. You sometimes need a thick skin for online "debates" - the medium of fora isn't for everyone.. Don't know what the original thread was about but refreshing to see a poster apologise. Agree with the poster who said that when posting you should do so as if you are addressing the person to their face..

I do think that the woman's lib movement has caused women to be under so much pressure to be superwoman these days and all i see are guilty tired stressed mums and that's not good for her or the kids, the joke is all the working mums i know are stressed off their faces and get even less quality time with their kids cause they are to tired yet all their wages go on childcare and it kind of makes you think why bother. Why blame feminism when the fault clearly lies with inflexible workplace expectations which take men with SAHM wives as the default mode, rather than assuming employees of either *** with children are sharing childcare responsibilities? Feminism has only been a force for good - though it's still far from achieving many of its goals - it's the world of work that needs to catch up and institute more flexible models of work that reflect how men and women with children really live. Excellent argument Custard Apple the secret is co parenting. In our day my Dh wouldn't have dreamt of changing a nappy 1or2, yet my son does as much as DIL does re child care.The work place attitude has to change however, in Canada we are moving forward in some aspects.The mother or father can take maternity leave for a year.A definate step in the right direction but more work to be done.

Awww girls that was so sweet, thank you. The best way is to be honest with MIL in a direct but kind way. I know some of them take absolutely no notice though ie. my MIL ( she is since deceased) but try anyway. It just made me more determined to do the exact oppisite to what she did to me.Hopefully we can look forward to a whole batch of wonderful MIL's in the future LOL. Sorry for hijacking Two Kids started off with 3 yrs olds and summer camp, ended up MIL thread......but in a nice way. ;)

Nomad, please give MIL lessons.......:) so nice to hear your response!

I do think that the woman's lib movement has caused women to be under so much pressure to be superwoman these days and all i see are guilty tired stressed mums and that's not good for her or the kids, the joke is all the working mums i know are stressed off their faces and get even less quality time with their kids cause they are to tired yet all their wages go on childcare and it kind of makes you think why bother. Why blame feminism when the fault clearly lies with inflexible workplace expectations which take men with SAHM wives as the default mode, rather than assuming employees of either *** with children are sharing childcare responsibilities? Feminism has only been a force for good - though it's still far from achieving many of its goals - it's the world of work that needs to catch up and institute more flexible models of work that reflect how men and women with children really live.

@ Nomad - wish I had you for a mother-in-law....seems like you 'get it'!!!

@ Rumour - kudos for the apology for Two Kids. @ Two kids - it was no doubt partly due to my comeback at Rumour that closed the post. I just spent the last 6 years raising 2 kids on my own, (hubby at the weekends), running a business from home in a country I don't even speak the language. I averaged 4 hrs sleep a night of which it was always broken sleep due to breastfeeding and night waking toddlers. I breastfed each child for 12 mths and know how pleasurable, but time consuming this is. Can't go anywhere, do anything because you are on call. I can count on one hand the number of times I went to a restaurant over the past 5 years as we had no baby sitter that I could trust with children so young. I literally had a breakdown last year because the workload was too much. The only thing that got my life back was to send my kids to kindergarten and pre-school. Let's face it, it is not SCHOOL, it is PRE-school in a school building. When I was with my kids, my mind was only half there because I had so many things to do for my business - I felt guilty. Then when I was working, I felt guilty about not spending enough time with the kids. I couldn't win either way I looked at it. Couldn't work because they wanted to play, so I played but was quick to finish so I could get back to my deadlines. Needless to say this wasn't good for anyone. The day I put them into their respective day cares, I started to breathe. They were so happy to play and mix with friends, coming home singing, showing me their artwork etc. I could then allocated guilt free time with them after this because I had the time to work in the mornings. Everybody was happy. My DD was fine, no crying, but my DS gave me some grief - they simply have 2 different personalities. My DS though, would stop crying the minute I left and would have a blast for the rest of the day and didn't want to come home when I picked him up. I would imagine that your child would probably love the summer camp you proposed, but since this was an 'out of the blue' thing, she would have a hard time leaving you after spending so much quality time with you. Any child would have done this. It was maybe just too big of a change too quickly. I put my DS into a summer camp which was part of his nursery. This meant that he saw the same teachers, and the same kids that he already knew. I could not have put my DS into a summer camp, just for a week, if he didn't know anyone.I am sure she just needs a little more time to the adjustment and things would work out just fine for you. Raising kids is an incredibly tough job, but such a rewarding one. Each Mum has to find her own way to find her own balance. There are no matyrs - no way is better than the other - it's just what works for all in YOUR family that counts the most. My mother-in-law would always say to me, still does, well I did this, this and this on my own with no help. Well clap, clap, clap for her. If she is so proud of her achievements, then why does she always have to bring it up with a bitter voice. Don't let ANYONE bully you into thinking you have done something wrong. I hate conflict, and I rarely react like I did last night, but Rumour's comments made me so irate because of the way she said them. Then she made me even more angrier by admitting that she doesn't have any kids and yet she had such harsh criticism. I just could not simply sit back and read such things. Two kids - you sound like a great Mum! Do what you think is best and stuff the rest! @SuzyDuzy really good post. As a MIL and G mother I think it is really important to keep " in touch " with how things have changed as far a child rearing since I had little ones. I had a MIL from h*ll and swore I would never put anyone through what I went through. I love my DIL dearly don't always agree with what she does ( but keep the lip shut !!) , but I am the granny, the back up when they need me. We have some touchy times when my son pipes up and says " my mom didn't do it that way",but we get by that with a well aimed kick in the shin LOL.... Child rearing has changed so drasticaally over the last 30 yrs since I had my boys ( the wooden spoon worked overtime in our house). There was no such thing as a cell or a home computor and the general pace of life was much slower.We weren't "on call" to all and sundry 24/7 with texting etc.At times I honestly don't know how mothers cope in todays world. These cyber chats( yes I know thanks to the home computor he he ) are a wonderful tool a really good way to swop ideas etc. We should always remember to chat online as if that person was sitting infront of us. @ Rumour your apology was most sincere ,well done, not an easy thing to do. As you have said it has made you think differently about having and raising children. @ Two kids you sound so much happier today, armed with a whole lot of new opinions and ideas which I think is what you wanted initially. Have a good week end ladies.

You know, Rumour, I think you have a point with the women's lib thing. Not that it hasn't brought about a massive improvement for women and their rights - of course it has - but that nowadays we're all expected to be able to do everything single-handedly and be everything to everybody; juggle kids and a career, be Supermum and a boardroom superstar, run a home while enjoying a glittering social life, maintain a wonderful figure while churning out babies, and so on. Anything less than this and we're led to feel like failures. And it also doesn't help that we have our older female relatives constantly reminding us how much harder it was for them! I know my brother was a terrible sleeper and Mum was up all hours with him but I had PND after DS was born, brought about by sleep deprivation. I guess some of us can cope and some can't. We're in the UK at the moment and of course DS has been a bit unsettled with the travelling and time difference, so his sleep - and therefore mine - has been disrupted. I must have been a bit grumpy one morning because my lovely sympathetic Mum told me it was always 'glass half empy' with me! Gee, thanks! TwoKids, I'm so pleased you found a solution and things are looking up :).

Oh Rumour, you should not have worried about me. At the end of the day I have a loving DH and two beautiful children. The whole cyber-world is a strange thing. I think that many say what they would never say to someone that they do not know or have just met. It is a learning curve for me! My own sister does not have children and she has the strangest thoughts and comes out with really odd comments about parenting. None of my family can be bothered skyping my DD who misses her family and is cooped up indoors. So, it is the here and now what matters, and not necessarily how we were raised in the past. The people I live with everyday true family and my number 1 priority. Enjoy your Thursday:)

Hey Rumour - if you can find the right balance, then it is most definitively worth it. If we all thought like this, then we would not have any educated women, entrepreneurs, presidents in this world. You shouldn't have to give up a career just because you want children. Just remember, when they are of school age and start growing up fast and leave the house all day, Mum needs to have a focus, a goal or something to keep them occupied. It is very cut throat out there in this world today and taking 3 years off for kids doesn't help at all. Some don't have a choice, others need it to be stimulated. I would go bonkers if I did not have something to stimulate my brain and keep me busy. Tried it once, even before kids, and nope - not for me. Others use this time to volunteer for charities and associations etc now that they have the time. Others simply enjoy a stress free life - and that I am jealous of. We need ALL of these people to make our world go round. I truly hope that when you decide to have kids, that you can not feel any guilt about the way your mum raised you, or what others may say to you, and just do what you need to do to lead a happy and balanced life. Keep an open mind... it all starts at pregnancy - as soon as you are pregnant everybody sticks their nose into your business. Learn to listen and choose what you want to keep and throw away! And ALWAYS remember, 'if Mama ain't happy, nobody ain't happy'! Best of luck to you!

@ Rumour - kudos for the apology for Two Kids. @ Two kids - it was no doubt partly due to my comeback at Rumour that closed the post. I just spent the last 6 years raising 2 kids on my own, (hubby at the weekends), running a business from home in a country I don't even speak the language. I averaged 4 hrs sleep a night of which it was always broken sleep due to breastfeeding and night waking toddlers. I breastfed each child for 12 mths and know how pleasurable, but time consuming this is. Can't go anywhere, do anything because you are on call. I can count on one hand the number of times I went to a restaurant over the past 5 years as we had no baby sitter that I could trust with children so young. I literally had a breakdown last year because the workload was too much. The only thing that got my life back was to send my kids to kindergarten and pre-school. Let's face it, it is not SCHOOL, it is PRE-school in a school building. When I was with my kids, my mind was only half there because I had so many things to do for my business - I felt guilty. Then when I was working, I felt guilty about not spending enough time with the kids. I couldn't win either way I looked at it. Couldn't work because they wanted to play, so I played but was quick to finish so I could get back to my deadlines. Needless to say this wasn't good for anyone. The day I put them into their respective day cares, I started to breathe. They were so happy to play and mix with friends, coming home singing, showing me their artwork etc. I could then allocated guilt free time with them after this because I had the time to work in the mornings. Everybody was happy. My DD was fine, no crying, but my DS gave me some grief - they simply have 2 different personalities. My DS though, would stop crying the minute I left and would have a blast for the rest of the day and didn't want to come home when I picked him up. I would imagine that your child would probably love the summer camp you proposed, but since this was an 'out of the blue' thing, she would have a hard time leaving you after spending so much quality time with you. Any child would have done this. It was maybe just too big of a change too quickly. I put my DS into a summer camp which was part of his nursery. This meant that he saw the same teachers, and the same kids that he already knew. I could not have put my DS into a summer camp, just for a week, if he didn't know anyone.I am sure she just needs a little more time to the adjustment and things would work out just fine for you. Raising kids is an incredibly tough job, but such a rewarding one. Each Mum has to find her own way to find her own balance. There are no matyrs - no way is better than the other - it's just what works for all in YOUR family that counts the most. My mother-in-law would always say to me, still does, well I did this, this and this on my own with no help. Well clap, clap, clap for her. If she is so proud of her achievements, then why does she always have to bring it up with a bitter voice. Don't let ANYONE bully you into thinking you have done something wrong. I hate conflict, and I rarely react like I did last night, but Rumour's comments made me so irate because of the way she said them. Then she made me even more angrier by admitting that she doesn't have any kids and yet she had such harsh criticism. I just could not simply sit back and read such things. Two kids - you sound like a great Mum! Do what you think is best and stuff the rest! i had a horrible night sleep worrying that i had upset two kids which i really didn't mean to and i am sorry if i upset you. i did say heaps of times that my post had nothing to do with the op i was referring to another thread where everyone was going on and on about how it was much better for kids to be in school at 3 and they get more attention and i just didn't get how a teacher with 20 kids could give more attention to a mum with a few kids. i don't think daycare is a bad thing, my mum used to put my sister who has down syndrome in 2 mornings a week so she could get the housework done or go pay some bills or whatever she had to get done that week so i totally get that. I do think that the woman's lib movement has caused women to be under so much pressure to be superwoman these days and all i see are guilty tired stressed mums and that's not good for her or the kids, the joke is all the working mums i know are stressed off their faces and get even less quality time with their kids cause they are to tired yet all their wages go on childcare and it kind of makes you think why bother. I am sorry if i upset anyone but like everyone pointed out i don't have kids so maybe i will change my mind. lol

well best of luck with your job hunting!! We move into DSO next week!

No Victory Heights, but I took a wrong turn off ER yesterday, on my way to Ikea and cut through DSO. DH likes the villas at DSO but we are waiting to see where I get a job before we decide where to move to.

Thanks Two kids - do you live near DSO?

Thank you SuzyDuzy, what a lovely post. I was reading an article the other day about us not living in the present with our children. When we are with them we might have one eye on the mobile, the other on the laptop and listening out for the washing machine load to finish. Is this quantity time better than quality? Just a rhetorical question! I totally appreciate where you are coming from. We had a better start to the day today, but will start another thread, hopefully a happy one! Enjoy DSO - I drove past the school yesterday by chance, and it seems that it will be a nice little community in there:)

@ Rumour - kudos for the apology for Two Kids. @ Two kids - it was no doubt partly due to my comeback at Rumour that closed the post. I just spent the last 6 years raising 2 kids on my own, (hubby at the weekends), running a business from home in a country I don't even speak the language. I averaged 4 hrs sleep a night of which it was always broken sleep due to breastfeeding and night waking toddlers. I breastfed each child for 12 mths and know how pleasurable, but time consuming this is. Can't go anywhere, do anything because you are on call. I can count on one hand the number of times I went to a restaurant over the past 5 years as we had no baby sitter that I could trust with children so young. I literally had a breakdown last year because the workload was too much. The only thing that got my life back was to send my kids to kindergarten and pre-school. Let's face it, it is not SCHOOL, it is PRE-school in a school building. When I was with my kids, my mind was only half there because I had so many things to do for my business - I felt guilty. Then when I was working, I felt guilty about not spending enough time with the kids. I couldn't win either way I looked at it. Couldn't work because they wanted to play, so I played but was quick to finish so I could get back to my deadlines. Needless to say this wasn't good for anyone. The day I put them into their respective day cares, I started to breathe. They were so happy to play and mix with friends, coming home singing, showing me their artwork etc. I could then allocated guilt free time with them after this because I had the time to work in the mornings. Everybody was happy. My DD was fine, no crying, but my DS gave me some grief - they simply have 2 different personalities. My DS though, would stop crying the minute I left and would have a blast for the rest of the day and didn't want to come home when I picked him up. I would imagine that your child would probably love the summer camp you proposed, but since this was an 'out of the blue' thing, she would have a hard time leaving you after spending so much quality time with you. Any child would have done this. It was maybe just too big of a change too quickly. I put my DS into a summer camp which was part of his nursery. This meant that he saw the same teachers, and the same kids that he already knew. I could not have put my DS into a summer camp, just for a week, if he didn't know anyone.I am sure she just needs a little more time to the adjustment and things would work out just fine for you. Raising kids is an incredibly tough job, but such a rewarding one. Each Mum has to find her own way to find her own balance. There are no matyrs - no way is better than the other - it's just what works for all in YOUR family that counts the most. My mother-in-law would always say to me, still does, well I did this, this and this on my own with no help. Well clap, clap, clap for her. If she is so proud of her achievements, then why does she always have to bring it up with a bitter voice. Don't let ANYONE bully you into thinking you have done something wrong. I hate conflict, and I rarely react like I did last night, but Rumour's comments made me so irate because of the way she said them. Then she made me even more angrier by admitting that she doesn't have any kids and yet she had such harsh criticism. I just could not simply sit back and read such things. Two kids - you sound like a great Mum! Do what you think is best and stuff the rest!

Yes I found your initial reaction quite cutting, but I am a sensitive soul, which is why I posted for some validation, probably not a debate:) I did not expect nor want that backlash towards you. I think that raising children is such an emotive topic, and is the hardest job that I have ever had. im sorry if i upset you i honestly didn't mean to. Thank you. As I said I am a bit sensitive. My DH wonders why I follow EW as he knows that I can be emotional (plus breast feeding too which affects the hormones!). Moo Moo - thank you for your kind words. Yes DD is a gorgeous little girl with a cheeky streak, which is why I thought she would like summer camp. The truth is she likes just hanging out with mum, baby brother, 2 foster cats and Winston (bless him, he is probably not used to the taunts and the noise!) x

Yes I found your initial reaction quite cutting, but I am a sensitive soul, which is why I posted for some validation, probably not a debate:) I did not expect nor want that backlash towards you. I think that raising children is such an emotive topic, and is the hardest job that I have ever had. im sorry if i upset you i honestly didn't mean to.

TwoKids, I no longer do these kids threads and have no clue about the earlier thread but had to give my opinion (sorry!!!!) Have met your 2 delightful children and I think DD is great with a fantastic character. Remember when she didn't wanna take the extra and then the next time wanted to take the lead?!!! Get my drift?!!! Say no more! You have a darling there and honestly, I don't do kids but your DD, I DID!!!!!

Just wanted to add to closed thread (oh, never mind, I know nothing), that I agree with Nomad and Dubai Cat - all families and children are different and very obviously, one size does not fit all, so there is no right answer to your original question. You are obviously trying to do the best for everyone in the family, in your particular circs, so best of luck and hope it all works out for you. I have stayed at home with my child for most of the time since she was born, in the hope of having a better relationship with her than I do with my own mother, who went back to work after I was born. I have singularly failed at being a good mother and don't know how I could have done it differently, given both of our temperaments. I'm still working on it now, there is no way I could have known how things would turn out when I was doing what I thought was the best thing for her when she was a toddler. People cannot be censorious or prescriptive about these things, each dynamic is different. Don't worry, do your best as you see fit. yeah but you don't know if you had went back to work when your daughter was little if things would have turned out any better or worse.. i don't know how old your daughter is but i went through a bit of a sticky patch with my mum when i was around 15, to me she was the worse mum in the world always on my case about something and we argued all the time. the truth is i was horrible to her and when i think back at some of the things i said i am ashamed. It took a few years but now she is my best friend and i love her more than anyone else in the world and i am sure your daughter will feel the same when she gets through the silly stage we all go through.

Hi simpleasabc, I never realised that the thread was closed. That was why I could not post a reply. I wonder why this happens?! Thank you for expressing your sentiments. It is funny how many of us judge each other without knowing anything other than what the OP puts in the thread. It makes you think twice about posting a thread. I was questioning myself all day! Summer camps seem so common and hugely advertised here that I thought it was the norm for active children who were stuck indoors all summer. My DD doesn't go to nursery nor have a helper so it is usually just me and the two kids. My daughter's behaviour is challenging at times, and I have lost my patience and find myself not being a great mother under those circumstances. A bit of time away from each other never hurt. Yes we are our own worst critics and need to support each other. I'm sure that you are a great mother:-) Can i just say once again my posts had nothing to do with what you were asking bout play camp. I wasn't taking a cheap shot at you i was speaking about people who send their kids to SCHOOL at 3 and all the mums who do that obviously got the hump about it and tried to make it look like i was having go at you when i wasn't. But it seems to be the norm here. I was surprised too, to find out my DD could start school in September at 3 yrs, 5 months old. I do not know anyone who is not sending their child to FS1 if they are eligible to start. In Australia my DD would start kindergarten in February 2012, which is not much different. It seems to be an exciting milestone for the child, and I've never been exposed to such debates!

Yes I found your initial reaction quite cutting, but I am a sensitive soul, which is why I posted for some validation, probably not a debate:) I did not expect nor want that backlash towards you. I think that raising children is such an emotive topic, and is the hardest job that I have ever had.

Was it perhaps getting too heated between posters. I didn't read it myself, so I don't know. If that is the case the mods may have closed to stop any more arguing. :)

Hi simpleasabc, I never realised that the thread was closed. That was why I could not post a reply. I wonder why this happens?! Thank you for expressing your sentiments. It is funny how many of us judge each other without knowing anything other than what the OP puts in the thread. It makes you think twice about posting a thread. I was questioning myself all day! Summer camps seem so common and hugely advertised here that I thought it was the norm for active children who were stuck indoors all summer. My DD doesn't go to nursery nor have a helper so it is usually just me and the two kids. My daughter's behaviour is challenging at times, and I have lost my patience and find myself not being a great mother under those circumstances. A bit of time away from each other never hurt. Yes we are our own worst critics and need to support each other. I'm sure that you are a great mother:-) Can i just say once again my posts had nothing to do with what you were asking bout play camp. I wasn't taking a cheap shot at you i was speaking about people who send their kids to SCHOOL at 3 and all the mums who do that obviously got the hump about it and tried to make it look like i was having go at you when i wasn't.

probably cause they were all ganging up on me.

i've never seen a closed thread before- any idea why it is closed?

Hi simpleasabc, I never realised that the thread was closed. That was why I could not post a reply. I wonder why this happens?! Thank you for expressing your sentiments. It is funny how many of us judge each other without knowing anything other than what the OP puts in the thread. It makes you think twice about posting a thread. I was questioning myself all day! Summer camps seem so common and hugely advertised here that I thought it was the norm for active children who were stuck indoors all summer. My DD doesn't go to nursery nor have a helper so it is usually just me and the two kids. My daughter's behaviour is challenging at times, and I have lost my patience and find myself not being a great mother under those circumstances. A bit of time away from each other never hurt. Yes we are our own worst critics and need to support each other. I'm sure that you are a great mother:-)